Originally Posted by Fogbuster

And the norm will be very simple, but also very absolute: one man, one wife. Forever and ever. It is the only fair and equitable, as well as fulfilling, arrangement conceivable.

Originally Posted by Patters

No, you're wrong. The main reason to avoid a referendum is that it's the view of all civil rights advocates that rights should be subject to public referendum.

Originally Posted by Patters

Had we voted on spending tens of millions of dollars for handicapped access, it might have been voted down in some states. Had we voted on interracial marriage, it would have been voted down in some states. (A 2004 election in Alabama suggested 51% of the people there opposed interracial marriage.) There were periods when the rights of Jews, Irish, Italians, and others would have been curbed in some states. Human rights should not be subject to a vote. That's why they are embedded in the Constitution.

Originally Posted by Patters

At any rate, your view of how a public referendum would turn out is not based on polls, so what's it's based on?

Originally Posted by QuiGon

bull*****. If you honestly thought you would win, you would embrace a public referendum because it would strengthen your cause nationally.
A man has no more a right to marry another man than he does to marry 6 women, his brother, his uncle and his 2 pet poodles.
It's based on my belief that a solid majority of residents agree with my position. We both know your polls are biased and not true indicators of public sentiment. That's why you're so terrified of a public referendum.

Originally Posted by Patters

First, I'm not terrified of a public referendum.

Originally Posted by Patters

Second, it would be a close vote. I worked in the suburbs with guys like the people in this forum, and some of them (even conservatives) have gay kids, siblings, or good gay friends. There are a lot of people out there who might be otherwise conservative, but because of their family or friendships would not vote against gays.

Originally Posted by Patters

(They might not vote at all.) Perhaps you are as unpopular outside here as you are in here,

Originally Posted by Patters

First, I'm not terrified of a public referendum. From what I've read is that even if a Constitutional amendment is passed, it would not be retroactive, so my marriage would still be intact, and I'd continue to have the luxury of paying more on my state income tax than I did before I was married.

Second, it would be a close vote. I worked in the suburbs with guys like the people in this forum, and some of them (even conservatives) have gay kids, siblings, or good gay friends. There are a lot of people out there who might be otherwise conservative, but because of their family or friendships would not vote against gays. (They might not vote at all.) Perhaps you are as unpopular outside here as you are in here, and therefore don't have much knowledge of what people really think. Remember, there are a lot of people with gay kids who don't share that information (especially with bigots), but who are affected by it.

Originally Posted by wistahpatsfan

First of all: Pay no attention to anyone who is mouthing off about this issue who doesn't live in Mass. It has nothing to do with them, and that includes Mitt Romney.

Originally Posted by wistahpatsfan

Second of all: You're married? What - you didn't know any other married people? They could have told you how miserable you would be eventually. I still am pissed at my friends who could have but didn't warn me! (Just kidding, my wife's a much better person than I am - just ask her)

Originally Posted by Patters

If you were a different person, you'd be a different person. There's no telling what your views would be if you were raised as a black person, for instance.

Are you aware that in many places people can be fired and denied housing for being gay? Are you aware that marriage protects estates, creates certain rights with regard to a hospitalized or otherwise incapacitated spouse, provides for some Social Security benefits, protects kids (and many gay couples have kids), provides some employee benefits, etc.? Of course you're aware of those things, but having no experience as a minority you perhaps take them for granted. If your civil rights aren't affected, you obviously don't care. In fact, I know your view of the civil rights. You think private employers should be allowed to discriminate, so in my opinion your views are really in line with another era when minorities "knew their place." Like I said, conservatives seldom win in the long run. (Soon we'll have immigration reform and more and more states are moving towards civil unions, if not gay marriage.)

Originally Posted by Patters

That's certainly not the direction things are going in. In every part of the world, even the Middle East, gays have made progress. The world is getting more complex, not more simple, and tolerance and understanding are becoming more and more important. Sure, you can point to a country here or there where there is a serious setback to human rights, but the overall trend is towards a more accepting world where we respect our differences, rather than try to impose one ideal. Under Clinton, Stephen Hawking spoke at the White House and it was aired on tv. He was asked what he thought the world be like in 100 years and he said (and I'm paraphrasing), "I'll tell you one thing: It won't be like Star Trek. People will not be the same. There will be more diversity as more and more people learn to think for themselves."

Originally Posted by Patters

First, I'm not terrified of a public referendum. From what I've read is that even if a Constitutional amendment is passed, it would not be retroactive, so my marriage would still be intact, and I'd continue to have the luxury of paying more on my state income tax than I did before I was married.

Second, it would be a close vote. I worked in the suburbs with guys like the people in this forum, and some of them (even conservatives) have gay kids, siblings, or good gay friends. There are a lot of people out there who might be otherwise conservative, but because of their family or friendships would not vote against gays. (They might not vote at all.) Perhaps you are as unpopular outside here as you are in here, and therefore don't have much knowledge of what people really think. Remember, there are a lot of people with gay kids who don't share that information (especially with bigots), but who are affected by it.