Real World

Can anyone explain to me what was discriminatory about the previous tests? I'm not sure I'm following this properly.


State strikes deal on fire, police exams
Calls for more minority hires

By Shelley Murphy, Globe Staff | May 31, 2007

The state has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit by requiring Boston, Brookline, and 18 other cities and towns to offer police and firefighter jobs to minority applicants who took civil service exams that a judge later found were discriminatory. The state would also pay a total of up to $1.45 million in back pay.

The agreement, which will be presented to a federal judge for approval Wednesday, calls for the hiring of 66 minority candidates statewide, including 26 in Boston, who scored high on police or fire exams between 2002 and 2005, but lost out to higher-scoring white candidates.

A federal judge ruled last summer that the state's 2002 and 2004 firefighter exams discriminated against blacks and Hispanics and was about to hold a trial to consider additional claims resulting from arguments that the 2003 and 2005 police exams were also unfair to members of minority groups.

Harold L. Lichten, a lawyer who filed the class-action suit against the state and the city of Lynn on behalf of four black firefighter applicants, said they agreed to settle because the state came up with a new "state of the art" exam last year that appears to be much fairer to minorities.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas..._police_exams/

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Harry Boy

I think I'll stay out of this one for awhile, if I give you my take on this they will close the thread.

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Harry Boy (Genius)

In The Absence Of Law And Order Society Will Surely Destroy Itself

Patters

I don't know. I just did a search on the internet and couldn't find more info. But as the article said, the applicants all had very high scores and the test has some bias. For instance, I am surprised the test didn't take into account strength. That would seem relevant. I'm also surprised that it had some questions that had nothing to do with firefighting. With a long and well-established history of discrimination in MA fire and police departments, is it any surprise that some would believe the tests are weighted unfairly?

At any rate, are tests scores really the only metric used to hire police and firefighters in MA. If so, that seems insane. Would you ever hire someone based solely on a test? There needs to be some subjectivity to the process, though I'm not sure if this suit addressed that at all.

Patters

Smart move, Harry. Besides, I'm sure we already know what you think, and RW might very well present your point of view in a more politically correct manner.

Real World

I looked and couldn't find anything. What made me question the exams is that the article said it was discriminatory towards minorites. What kind of questions would be to them, and not to whites?

The physical aspect was a little baffling too. You'd think they'd want people who could handle a hose, or chase down a thug. Maybe that was deemed discriminatory? I dunno.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Real World

Harry is a little more to the point than most.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

sdaniels7114

The back pay part pisses me off. The roofer guy wasn't unemployed because of this test being unfair, he was roofing during that time. If he lost some seniority status give him a bump with respect to that, but he doesn't deserve back pay.

Oh and won't the whole 'strength' thing just get women filing lawsuits? Damn, I should have been a lawyer

taltos

This is strictly based upon what was reported in today's Lynn Item in regards to the problems with the exam. The test included questions not related to the job being tested for. In addition the exam tested cognitive abilities which was considered dscriminatory toward minorities. The Item reported that the settlement was based upon minority complaints that the civil service exam questions and writing sections were "too hard". The plaintiffs also complained that beyond the test the state did not take into account applicants' personalities and life experiences. Make your own conclusions from here.

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Real World

I know what the article said, but what it didn't say, is what was discriminatory about the previous test. If minorities thought the questions were too hard, that's complete BS. What are they saying then, that minorities are dumber than white people? That's utterly ridiculous.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Harry Boy

Could it be the "Veteran Thing" and also could they want the Standards lowered.

My son is Mass Firefighter and retiring next month with a Captains Rank which means a very good pension, he has 32 yrs service, he has told me that the Veteran thing is a must now and also that most all of the new people coming on the job are College Grads, the benefits, the 24 hr shifts (five days off) the sick pay, the vacation time, the job security, the overtime, the pension plan and the pay scale has made "firefighting" a very attractive career.

They are probably claiming that the tests are discriminatory because some folks aren't veterans and some folks FLUNK the tests, that might be the answer because so many College People are going "on the job".

Jesus H Christ I hope I didn't offend anybody.

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Harry Boy (Genius)

In The Absence Of Law And Order Society Will Surely Destroy Itself