What we're dealing with: fire in the hole - Page 2 - New England Patriots Forums

PatsWSB47 · 04-26-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

My only point is that I view our attack on Iraq as a continuation of a failed and destructive policy by the west that started ages ago. The west is responsible for many of the problems in many regions of the world. Historically, the west has done a lot of harm, and I see Bush's war in that context. He might mean well, but even if he does, he is doing far more harm than good. I don't see this war as enhancing American safety or interests in any way, and I think we have to get out and use diplomacy and economic power to try to effect change.

Of course, bin Laden and the other terrorists are far more awful than Bush, and I oppose their strategy, too. But, I'm not looking out for their interests. My concern with this war is that it is making us a more and more desirable enemy for the disaffected throughout the world.

So as not to beat this horse completely to death I'll just finish with this. It takes you several replies filled with paragraph after paragraph on our evils usually to finally acknowlege with a line or two that someone may be in some way(s) worse than us.

mr3putt · 04-26-2007, 10:47 AM

Folks, we have a responsibility to end this thing right. To do that requires much more than feel-good measures that withdraw our troops from the battlefield; tens of millions of lives -- the entire Middle East, if not the world -- are depending on us to do it properly. Get it wrong and we are in for some very serious challenges from abroad. More attacks from abroad would be likely, and worse than 9/11 by several magnitudes. The perception of fear or weakness inspires evil to attack.

In spite of the facts..the deaths...the anarchy in Iraq you still fail to see the futility of Bush's initiative.

"THE FAULT LIES NOT IN THE STARS...BUT IN OURSELVES"

***DarrylS*** · 04-26-2007, 11:18 AM

Here is a real simple solution to continue the funding for the war in Iraq, World Net Daily is reporting today that Billions are missing from Iraq.. the war profiteers are getting richer, and there is not enough to spread around for our fighting men and women..this is written by that acclaimed right winger, Jerome Corsi, so it must be true. Just recover the money from the profiteers and then the war can continue.. .

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=55332

As the debate in Congress over supplemental funding for the war in Iraq heats up, the Department of Defense still cannot adequately account for billions of dollars, according to the Government Accountability Office.

"For the past 10 consecutive years, we have been unable to certify the Financial Report of the U.S., which is prepared annually by the Treasury Department," Gary Engle, director of Financial Management and Assurance at the GAO, told WND. "Many of the material weaknesses that we found relate to the Department of Defense and their financial management problems."

Engle explained that the Defense Department problems had not been corrected at the end of 2006 when the GAO was performing its audit work.

"There are efforts underway over at DOD to address the problems, but the efforts are likely to be long-term projects," he said
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***Patters*** · 04-26-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsSB42

So as not to beat this horse completely to death I'll just finish with this. It takes you several replies filled with paragraph after paragraph on our evils usually to finally acknowledge with a line or two that someone may be in some way(s) worse than us.

Do you honestly think I have any love or sympathy for Al Qaeda? Of course not. But, you worry more about your own family and country than about other's. Our evils are the ones in dispute. There is no dispute about the evils of bin Laden. If you want to start a thread condemning bin Laden, I would guess it would be rather dull because we would all agree. Just as I take for granted that you may favor some of Bush's policies because you see them as in the interest of the U.S., you should take it for granted that I oppose them because I see them as against our interests. In addition, let's face, to the extent my voice has any influence, it has a lot more influence at home where I can participate in the political process than in the Middle East where I cannot.

Real World · 04-26-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdaniels7114

The troops aren't going to leave. Its a simple matter for Bush to pull out his veto stamp and that's that. The troops won't be without bullets because as soon as Bush vetos this one, a bill that finances the war will pass in a matter of days. This bill is about stopping any Republican BS about this war being bipartisan. Its Bush's war, nobody else wanted it and this bill will make sure that the Republicans can't weasel their way out of facing the political costs. They got hammered in '06 and the slaughter will only continue in '08.

Sorry but the Senate voted for this war. Now they don't want it, but they voted for it when it mattered.

Real World · 04-26-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsSB42

Yes Fog, you see if it were not for the evil west, these otherwise peaceful and loving good people would have been living in a virtual paradise. Their culture of human rights for all, religious freedom, equality for their women and gay rights would have been been a beacon and envy of the whole world. Not one drop of blood would have ever been shed.

Bad west! Bad, Bad, Bad! (but please continue to send aid for natural disaters).

Seriously though, some groups would be smaller, yes but as nations move toward freedom, extremists will surface to stop it no matter where it starts from. Kissing a woman in public sets the wheels in motion for God's sake and that isn't even from Islamic extremists.

It was the JOOOOOOOS!

If not, just blame America.

Real World · 04-26-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patters

How quickly you forget that the peaceful and loving west has killed upwards of 100,000,000 over the last 150 years. By those standards, bin Laden seems like a peacenik! We're not as morally superior as you seem to think.

The west is far more advanced, and far more civilized than the rest of the planet. Give the ME or Africa the tools the west has/had, and we probably wouldn't have a planet right now. Have you seen what happens in Liberia, Rwanda, Darfur? How about Halabja or Black September? The only thing that separates the figures are the tools available. The principles of slaughter are both the same.

Real World · 04-26-2007, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsSB42

The problem is Patters you blame us for our past and us for their present. Are we to blame for everything for crying out loud? Your excuse of trying to place perspective on everything always starts by digging some dirt on the USA. So not only do you get to bash the evil USA, you give a virtual pass for Bin Laden and his ilk becasue after all, it's our fault they're evil, not theirs. I know you didn't say this and you didn't say that but your tone is always the same. Start with whats wrong with us and excuse whats wrong with them.

It goes like this:

You: Bin-Laden is a murdering animal.

America hater: Yeah but we bombed Hiroshima.

***shmessy*** · 04-26-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real World

Sorry but the Senate voted for this war. Now they don't want it, but they voted for it when it mattered.

1) Tiny little difference, doncha think, regarding who was the majority in the Senate then and who is now?

2) That vote was to give the President the go ahead to do whatever he needed in this situation. That was before this administration proved its incompetence.

When an incompetent worker is fired, you don't say, "Well, the boss hired him a couple of years ago, therefore he/she has no right to turn around and fire him!" Of course not! If someone does a $hitty job, they get the keys to the executive washroom or corporate car taken away from them before they get more power and screw up the company even more - - before they do so badly as to get fired! - - this is the same thing.

Real World · 04-26-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmessy

1) Tiny little difference, doncha think, regarding who was the majority in the Senate then and who is now?

Yeah, what was that majority BTW? Furthermore, the same clowns are still in office. Just be fair is all I'm asking. They knew what they were all voting for, do I need to did up the quotes from back then? This is the problem with this country, no one is accountable, and the party people let them off the hook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmessy

2) That vote was to give the President the go ahead to do whatever he needed in this situation. That was before this administration proved its incompetence.

When an incompetent worker is fired, you don't say, "Well, the boss hired him a couple of years ago, therefore he/she has no right to turn around and fire him!" Of course not! If someone does a $hitty job, they get the keys to the executive washroom or corporate car taken away from them before they get more power and screw up the company even more - - before they do so badly as to get fired! - - this is the same thing.

Those who voted for authorization, put a finger in the wind, and voted accordingly. Just be accountable. The prosectution of this war has been awful, which I don't put on their shoulders, I put on someone elses, but their vote is still there for everyone to see.