Patters

If you're wondering how Bush's War on Iraq is going since he flip-flopped and change course with the surge:

http://icasualties.org/oif/

This appears to be a pretty good site, and on at least one blog someone claimed that many media outlets rely on it, but I don't know if that's true.

Real World

Flip flopped? You're comical. First it was criticism for "staying the course", and not adapting, or changing tactics, now it's a "flip-flop" for implementing a new security strategy that seems to be working in its early stages. Nah, you want us to succeed though. I know.


Fewer Iraq Deaths During Security Sweep

Tuesday February 27, 2007 11:31 PM


By KIM GAMEL

Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - The Baghdad security operation has been under way less than three weeks, but it has already registered one small success: a sharp drop in the number of bullet-riddled bodies found in the streets - victims of sectarian death squads.

The number of bodies found so far this month in Baghdad - most of them shot and showing signs of torture - has dropped by nearly 50 percent to 494 as of Monday night, compared with 954 in January and 1,222 in December, according to figures compiled by The Associated Press.

Since the crackdown was formally launched Feb. 14, a total of 164 bodies had been found in the capital as of Monday, according to AP figures, which are compiled from police reports. The AP count showed 390 bodies were discovered in the same period in January.

``The intensive security measures have forced the gunmen to leave Baghdad and quit throwing bodies in the streets,'' said Kamil Abdul-Nour, a 42-year-old Sunni teacher. ``Still, I am afraid that this phenomenon will appear again if the security measures end,'' he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...444923,00.html



Thursday, 03/15/07

Baghdad sees signs of progress from surge

Deaths down, but U.S hesitant to claim success

By ROBERT H. REID
Associated Press


BAGHDAD — Bomb deaths have gone down 30 percent in Baghdad since the U.S.-led security crackdown began a month ago. Execution-style slayings are down by nearly half.

The once frequent sound of weapons has become episodic, and downtown shoppers have returned to outdoor markets — favored targets of car bombers.There are signs of progress in the campaign to restore order in Iraq, starting with its capital city.

.....

Gone are the "illegal checkpoints" at which Shiite and Sunni gunmen stopped cars and hauled away members of the rival sect — often to a gruesome torture and death.

The rattle of automatic weapons fire or the rumble of distant roadside bombs comes less frequently. Traffic is beginning to return to the city's once vacant streets.

"People are very optimistic because they sense a development. The level of sectarian violence in streets and areas has decreased," said a 50-year-old Shiite, who gave his name only as Abu Abbas, or "father of Abbas." "The activities of the militias have also decreased. The car bombs and the suicide attacks are the only things left, while other kinds of violence have decreased."

http://www.dicksonherald.com/apps/pb...WS08/703150389

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Patters

The link I provided seems to show that violence is more or less the same as it was. We've had many worse months prior to the surge, but also a few better ones.

Real World

That's some great analysis Patters. Truly in depth.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Patters

Almost as good as all the links you provided showing that the surge is working

Real World

I just posted two in this thread. I hate to say it Patters, but you know about as much about this war as my sisters Bichon Frise. I know though, you actually want us to succeed there.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Harry Boy

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In The Absence Of Law And Order Society Will Surely Destroy Itself

Real World

For the life of me I still can't understand why someone wouldn't want us to succeed in Iraq. I totally understand why people would be against the war itself, but to be against success is mind boggling.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Patters

Do you have trouble understanding that the issue is over how to succeed in Iraq? You think military operations can succeed; others think diplomacy has a better chance of succeeding. You point to a couple articles that can hardly point to a trend; I point to a website that shows the number of casualties has remained fairly consistent with or without the surge.

Real World

Like I said, you are utterly clueless as to what is going on over there. I'm not surprised though since you only see things one way, Dems right, Repubs wrong. Furthermore, you rely on the select MSM, and left leaning news sources for your information. If you had a clue, you'd know what the specifics of the counterinsurgency plan is all about. You don't though, and I've explained them enough in here to know the Agenda driven will never cede to logic or reason. Like your cohort, Agenda Boy, no matter how many times someone explains a specific perspective, or fact, you will refuse to even attempt to understand it. It's people like you, and your ilk, that makes politics so deplorable in this country. People like you give fuel to the partisanism.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897