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Islam is backwards in its treatment of women, but women have made progress there. (In a few of the countries, they can hold professional jobs, have equal access to the secular courts, and don't have to wear veils.) Unfortunately, like here, the religious right got control, something we fomented with our war machine.
Once we're out of Iraq and the military, which is generally right-wing wherever you look, plays less of a role, the Middle East will once again progress. But, it will take awhile. Even Europe took a full generation after WWII to recover. It will take Iraq at least that long to recover from the damage we have done, so women's rights are a long way off.
By the way, many left-wingers were disappointed when Hamas won among the Palestinians. As corrupt as Fatah was, they were at least progressive in terms of women's rights, education, and other matters.
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As corrupt as Fatah was, they were at least progressive in terms of women's rights, education, and other matters.
The problem was that their corruption was 1984-esque. People would vanish in the middle of the night never to be heard from again. We talk about having no good choices to vote for. Man, were the Palestinian people between a rock and a hard place when they had to vote between Hamas and Fatah.
I spent 7 years living in an Orthodox Jewish home and I can unequvically tell you that women do not have equal rights in the religion. It's nothing like the oppresive Muslim countries, but it's not exactly equality. Likewise in most denominations of Christianity. How many of them allow female priests?
I've been on the female priest, priests should marry path for quite some time. I find it so odd that priests cannot marry, but more odd that women are not allowed to become priests. Is it a lock on traditionalist ideals, or is it something else? I remember growing up, it was taught that priests could not marry, and had to remain celebate as a sacrafice to God, or so as a show of their undivided attention to serving God. Someone else in here might know better, 3 to be 4 maybe, or Fog.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Islam is backwards in its treatment of women, but women have made progress there. (In a few of the countries, they can hold professional jobs, have equal access to the secular courts, and don't have to wear veils.) Unfortunately, like here, the religious right got control, something we fomented with our war machine.
Once we're out of Iraq and the military, which is generally right-wing wherever you look, plays less of a role, the Middle East will once again progress. But, it will take awhile. Even Europe took a full generation after WWII to recover. It will take Iraq at least that long to recover from the damage we have done, so women's rights are a long way off.
By the way, many left-wingers were disappointed when Hamas won among the Palestinians. As corrupt as Fatah was, they were at least progressive in terms of women's rights, education, and other matters.
I can always count on you for a good laugh.
Yup, our 4 years in Iraq has so greatly impeded the progression of women's rights in the region, that when we leave they're sure to flourish.
Here's a great article that illustrates the move to free voting, especially by women, in some of the ME nations. Take note that most of the advances have occured in the last 2-5 years, so do the math.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Last edited by Real World; 02-26-2007 at 02:49 PM..
Yup, our 4 years in Iraq has so greatly impeded the progression of women's rights in the region, that when we leave they're sure to flourish.
Women were achieving greater equality, and much of that happened in the 60s and 70s. Countries like Morocco have secular courts where women have rights; in Jordan, Egypt, and others, women don't have to wear veils; in many of the Arab countries women are allowed to attend college and hold professional jobs. Those are examples of progress. That said, since we went to Iraq, we unleashed the religious fanatics especially in Iran and Iraq, who want to set things back.
Of course, the best solution would be for us to win and persuade them to adapt our values and follow a liberal constitution, but with 140,000 troops in a country of 170,000 sq. mi. and has a population of 26,000,000, I think the evidence is mounting that we won't be able to win the war.
Women were achieving greater equality, and much of that happened in the 60s and 70s. Countries like Morocco have secular courts where women have rights; in Jordan, Egypt, and others, women don't have to wear veils; in many of the Arab countries women are allowed to attend college and hold professional jobs. Those are examples of progress. That said, since we went to Iraq, we unleashed the religious fanatics especially in Iran and Iraq, who want to set things back.
Of course, the best solution would be for us to win and persuade them to adapt our values and follow a liberal constitution, but with 140,000 troops in a country of 170,000 sq. mi. and has a population of 26,000,000, I think the evidence is mounting that we won't be able to win the war.
Gimme a break!
Yeah, rights alright, like not having to cover your face in public, and breathing on your own free will. Hmmm....60's to 2007 = 40 years? Dang, that's some progress. To listen to you is funny sometimes. At any rate, women in Iraq are serving in office. They are a part of the elected body. Since 2000 a number of Arab states have permitted women to vote for the first time. Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, etc. The article talks about them. LAst I checked, that wasn't during Clinton's presidency. Now, if you wantedto say that progress was made during his tenure, then fine, it clealry was, but if you want to say that it ONLY happened during his tenure, you're a fraud, cuz lots has happened since 2000. See, to me, partisan hacks, and party sheeple are those who are never willing to give credence to the opposing side. People point to Iraq and only talk about the negatives, and never want to discuss any positives. I understand how negative an issue Iraq is, but to ignore all things is ignorant.
We very well may not "win" this war, but what's astounding is how many in here don't want us too.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
We very well may not "win" this war, but what's astounding is how many in here don't want us too.
It depends on what winning means, and what the price is.
If winning really meant ridding Iraq of WMD's, I would have gone for that. But I'm not sure we should be nation-building, and I'm not sure what winning is or how we would do it.
It depends on what winning means, and what the price is.
If winning really meant ridding Iraq of WMD's, I would have gone for that. But I'm not sure we should be nation-building, and I'm not sure what winning is or how we would do it.
It doesn't depend on what winning is, and most in here know exactly what I mean by my statement. There are people in this forum who enjoy, and look forward too, negative news from Iraq. They harp on it. They want the US to fail there. I'm not saying everyone is that way, and those who don't feel that way will know not to take any offense by my statement, as it wouldn't relate to them. Those who feel offended, well....
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Yeah, rights alright, like not having to cover your face in public, and breathing on your own free will. Hmmm....60's to 2007 = 40 years? Dang, that's some progress.
I think they were achieving steady progress up until the 1980s or so, but still they were a good 30 or 40 years behind us. (Let's remember that even here women did not have equal rights until starting in the 70s. For instance, prior to that it wasn't uncommon for woman to be accused of causing her own rape by dressing provocatively.) I think you lack historical perspective, like your adorable comments in another thread that politics are more dishonest today than they were in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real World
To listen to you is funny sometimes. At any rate, women in Iraq are serving in office. They are a part of the elected body. Since 2000 a number of Arab states have permitted women to vote for the first time. Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, etc. The article talks about them.
Like I said, it would be great if we were successful in Iraq, but I don't think we will be. When we leave, it will curious to see what reforms survive. Under Saddam, some women had relatively equal rights (which aren't many rights in a dictatorship) and were allowed to pursue careers and get professional jobs and so on, so maybe Iraqi culture is more amenable than some others. It is good to see that some of the smaller Arab states took steps towards women's rights, but I still think the war in Iraq will be a setback in that regard because it has empowered religious groups. In interesting to see that in Kuwait, no women got elected, but many Islamicists did.
I think they were achieving steady progress up until the 1980s or so, but still they were a good 30 or 40 years behind us. (Let's remember that even here women did not have equal rights until starting in the 70s. For instance, prior to that it wasn't uncommon for woman to be accused of causing her own rape by dressing provocatively.) I think you lack historical perspective, like your adorable comments in another thread that politics are more dishonest today than they were in the past.
Like I said, it would be great if we were successful in Iraq, but I don't think we will be. When we leave, it will curious to see what reforms survive. Under Saddam, some women had relatively equal rights (which aren't many rights in a dictatorship) and were allowed to pursue careers and get professional jobs and so on, so maybe Iraqi culture is more amenable than some others. It is good to see that some of the smaller Arab states took steps towards women's rights, but I still think the war in Iraq will be a setback in that regard because it has empowered religious groups. In interesting to see that in Kuwait, no women got elected, but many Islamicists did.
Yup, some women had the equal right to be raped. Uday and Qusay split them up 50/50, you know, with equality in mind.
Arab states are 30(0)-40(0) years behind us? Hmmm...I think you forgot a zero.
Reformist won 37 of the 50 seats in Kuwait. BTW, in Kuwait, women now make up 57% of the voting public. I think this, and the other points put forth in the article, clearly show how progress post Clinton is being made. Again, this isn't to be taken as a slash at Clinton, it is merely being mentioned to show that progress is not pertinent to a Dem presidency as you like to always imply.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Re: Islam-Islam-Islam
Hmmm....60's to 2007 = 40 years? Dang, that's some progress. To listen to you is funny sometimes. At any rate, women in Iraq are serving in office. They are a part of the elected body. Since 2000 a number of Arab states have permitted women to vote for the first time. Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, etc. The article talks about them. LAst I checked, that wasn't during Clinton's presidency. Now, if you wantedto say that progress was made during his tenure, then fine, it clealry was, but if you want to say that it ONLY happened during his tenure, you're a fraud, cuz lots has happened since 2000. See, to me, partisan hacks, and party sheeple are those who are never willing to give credence to the opposing side. People point to Iraq and only talk about the negatives, and never want to discuss any positives. I understand how negative an issue Iraq is, but to ignore all things is ignorant.
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