All_Around_Brown

Among the most vile politicians I've ever come across. Bush will probably get a pass (out of sheer dumb luck) when historians reflect on his disastrous 8 years in office. Cheney won't be so lucky. He is, after all, pulling all the levers.

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Real World

So did Roosevelt intentionally mislead the American public by securing a 3rd term by running on an anti-war platform even though he knew he were were going to join the war? Was he lying, or leading?

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Pujo

So Bush intentionally mislead us about the war, made us think they had WMD's, in order to... help the Iraqi's? That's the story, right?

Patters

You're comparing Bush to Roosevelt?

Real World

I asked a specific question, care to answer it, or are you going to deflect by asking another question?

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Patters

I've always maintained that it didn't matter whether Bush lied to the American people or was incompetent. Either one is bad. At any rate, did Roosevelt run on an anti-war platform? I believe he said he would do everything possible to keep us out of war, which is quite a bit different. In fact, we didn't get directly involved until quite late (a little too late, in my opinion).

PressCoverage

you mean exactly how you just did?

Real World

He ran on an anti-war platform. Public opinion polls were completely one sided when it came to US involvement in WWII. He clearly stated to the American public that we weren't getting involved, when he was clearly positioning the us to the contrary. No one criticizes him for his actions because 99% of the public look back and agree that we did the right thing to get involved. I'm not using this as a justification for our action in IRaq, I'm merely trying to point out that there is a fine line between lying, and leading. It's similar to an ends means debate.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Real World

Who's on first?

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

gomezcat

I suspect that the Administration found the evidence that fitted their case, but genuinely believed that their mission was the right one. I also think that they saw the need to remove Saddam as being the end that justified the means. In their defence, Saddam DID have a history of using WMDS, had invaded Kuwait, attacked Iran and was clearly psychopathic. We will find out if they lied about WMDs but it won't be soon. None of that exonerates them, as a lot of people have died for little positive result. Government should be about doing the right thing, regardless of good intentions.

I believe that the Neo-cons really do think that the US is a force for good in the world and that Freedom, Democracy and the American Way can be sold easily to others. It sells really well in Mid America but can be seen as incredibly imposing, i.e. you can elect leaders, but not ones like Ahmedinejad, as much as I dislike the guy.

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The blog of our recent trip to The States (September and October 2012):


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