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Re: Dem Congress Yields Pressure, Direct and Indirect
Originally Posted by Real World
I'll ask you what most people have asked me. What freedoms have you lost since 9/11? What in your life has changed for the sake of security? I totally understand your point, and am by no means advocating a zig hail, papers please society. All I am trying to point out is that quoting Benjamin Franklin, like so many Libertarians i know do (Thomas Jefferson is quotee #1), is kinda silly in todays world. They are nice quotes, the principles are obvious, but the reality is what it is. I think you have to concede something to gain somewhere else. The only question is how much is conceded, for how much of a gain, and how to ensure transparency.
You find our forefathers principles "silly"? How about "Beware Foreign Entrapment"??? Thats a silly one too, I suppose.
What freedoms have I lost since 9-11? Well, as an American, I feel that we have lost many.
-we have lost the consitutional right to face our accusers- habeus corpus has been suspended, as you know from what is underway at Gitmo and who knows where else
-we have lost the freedom from unreasonable search and seizure - probable cause is no longer required, merely labelling someone a terrorist is enough to ensure they do not get a trial in a court of law, and can be enough to seize assets; wiretapping without court oversight was until recently, a standard policy;
-we have lost freedom from cruel and unusual punishment - torture is now considered acceptable, if not widely, at least in some instances; ask Jose Padilla, whom the government can't seem to prosecute although he'd been detained for years without evidence
-But above all, we have lost many privacy rights. Your medical and banking records can now be seized and warehoused in the name of TIA. Why do you think there has been such an increase in identity theft cases over recent years? Social security numbers and affiliated sensitive records are now bought and sold on the black market because of security breaches at these third party "data warehouses"- Choicepoint, for example.
Now you could argue that the war on drugs (the first modern war on the american citizenry by the federal govt) initiated by another shadow government under similar circumstances (Nixon) was already responsible for diluting many of these types of liberties, and I would agree.
You could also argue that the GWOT took many these one step further from our founding fathers principles of justice and rule of law and one step closer to tyranny. And no, the principles are not obvious to many.
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Last edited by All_Around_Brown; 01-24-2007 at 08:33 AM..
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