All_Around_Brown

IMO, if we killed or captured him at Tora Bora, we might have been able to claim that we were serious about eliminating a bona fide threat to our society. By letting him get away, we have given our leaders the convenient excuse to keep americans afraid every election year...a point that the Bush-Rove-Cheney-Rummy cabal has made clear is something in their best interests. (It puts beaucoup money into their war chests)

What follows from that fear, of course, is the authoritative government you see today and their increasingly aggressive assault on the US constitution. ...and an intimidated media. No questions asked, please.

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Real World

I think that immediately following 9/11 his death or capture, prefferably his death, would have been less damaging from the radical angle. I don't think we "let" him get away as much as he simply got away. I'm not sure enough people understand the terrain we're talking about here. Should we have sent in more US troops (the 600 or so Rangers)? Absolutely. Would that have guaranteed his demise/capture? Not at all. I don't doubt for one second that there are individuals in the fold who feel his existence helps the GOP cause, but I don't think that would dictate policy over the real world ramifications of what his death or capture would bring. Clearly, Al-Queda would not cease to exist if UBL was caught tomorrow. Therfore the benefit of his existence is not infinite. Al-Queda would still be an everlasting threat. I happen to feel that the unpopularity of Musharefs aide to the US cause is part of the equation. Remember, that part of the world never has been very stable. Pakistan has a very distinguished population that is split along reformist policies versus old school islamics. Were the radicals to gain power, that would most likely result in two things, the control of nuclear arms in radical islamist hands, and a war with India. It's why I don't feel that the Admin is only in this for political gain, it's too over reaching an issue for it to be. Now, again, that doesn't mean that politics isn't mixed in. Only a fool would think not. It simply means that the politics, in relation to the GOP, is somewhat limited.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

All_Around_Brown

Real, I agree to an extent. I agree that Al-Q would not be effectively eliminated by his death. His prophecies alone have created what Richard Clarke would call a 'medusa effect'. A-Q is unfortunately stronger now with our invasion and subsequent occupation of an oil rich nation, however, and his death would have relatively minimal comparative effects of increasing the jihadist supply. The cause celebre as the NIE calls it is still our presence in Iraq, no matter how much we regret this geopolitical blunder.

Instead of killing him, apprehend him!! And bring him to justice for the trial of the century...the granddaddy of all trials!!! This would be, for all intents and purposes, our demonstration to moderate Islam that we are a nation of laws and that our system of justice is still our greatest strength, and makes US the greatest nation on earth.

Then give him the most cruel and unusual legal method of incarceration- a cell mate by the name of Dick Cheney.

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Real World

Trial of the century? This isn't network television. There is no way they want this guy alive. Look at the lunacy of the Saddam Trial. A UBL trial would have massive negative connotations globally. MAss riots, mass bombings, the murder of all things western. Look at what a couple of cartoons did, imagine what capturing or killing UBL would mean. I think you seriously under estimate how popular UBL is in the muslim world as a whole. Furthermore, what if the potential trial went Simpson'esqe? What then? What if the muslim world felt guilt beyond a reasonable doubt was not proven? Would you set him free? Of course not. So where would that help? Again, if this were merely political, Carl Rove himself would be hiking the mountains of Pakistan looking for UBL in time for the November elections. The way it's looking nothing short of that will save the GOP from saving seats.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

All_Around_Brown

Real, the Bush regime has shattered our image of what Reagan referred to as a "shining beacon of democracy". The way to restore it is to bring the man to justice and get him incarcerated.

We are talking about the man everyone in the world knows was responsible for the greatest terrorist act in history. You just want to brush him under the rug for fear of what a few radicals would think of us??

Theres the diff between us. I want the man subjected to justice, while we have a chance to show we still are a nation of laws.

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Real World

I've gotten into many an arguement over Reagans politics. I'm not quite sure Reagan would be held in such high regard under todays media. His regime clearly would not have so easily hid his black ops policies with a multitude of 24 hour cable news outlets, the internet boom, and modern communications means of today. How different would a 2006 Reagan Administration be from a 1980's Admin? Reagan was very ends justifies the means. King George is much the same way.


See, you're wrong about the world and UBL. Everyone, well most of, the western population does, but in the muslim world the numbers are far different. Most muslims, even those in western nations, do not believe Arabs carried out the 911 attacks.



DID ARABS CARRY OUT 9/11?
British Muslims: 56% No
French Muslims: 46% No
Indonesia: 65% No
Egypt: 59% No
Turkey: 59% No
Jordan: 53% No
(Source: Pew Center)


With sentiment like that, how are you going to get such primitives to believe your trial is legitimate? I think some of us don't quite understand the cultural, and societal differences involved here. Although radical islam is only a fraction of the globes muslim population, the entire pop as a whole is still rather primitive in comparrison to its western counterparts. This issue, TWAT, is far more complicated than people realize. It's not that I want to sweep the scumbag under the rug. Believe me when I say that I'd like to see his nuts diced up and served to seagulls. But the broader picture is what matters here. The destruction of Al-Queda is more important than the symbolistic capture of a figure head.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897

Harry Boy

No matter what Muslim did it the whole middle east was dancing in the streets, Saddam went out on his balcony and masturbated then he shot his gun off in the air, the smellies on the street looked up and applauded.

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In The Absence Of Law And Order Society Will Surely Destroy Itself

All_Around_Brown

You must both be incensed then that, according to the latest NIE, Iraq has given the jihadist movement cause celebre for recruitment like never before.

Well done. You party has provided ample fuel for a whole new generation of muslim radicals.

Iraq is now the recruitment poster for everything we were trying to defeat. Smart move by chuckle in chief.

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Real World

Again Brown, I'm not sure why that would be news? Is it coincidence that military recruiting in this country rose sharply after 9/11? Do you think UBL & Co should have been shocked at that increase? This fight isn't about the next few years, as much as it is about the next generation. The Cold War was a generational campaign. Most feel that radical islam may be similar. The NIE report wasn't anything everyone shouldn't have already known.

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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
Leo Tolstoy, 1897