What's so wrong with this idea? (Immigration and Inmate Rehabilitation) - New England Patriots Forums

***KontradictioN*** · 06-01-2010, 04:45 PM

People here are welcome to point out cons with these two ideas. With all the concerns about illegal immigration and inmate rehabilitation, I thought these would be interesting ideas to consider...

1. Illegal immigrants caught for the first time in the United States (after this idea would go into effect, anyway) by the INS would be given two choices: be deported back to their country of origin and be subject to punishment should they be caught in the U.S. again, or serve four years in any branch of the military and be granted a U.S. citizenship. Their first year in the branch of the military they would be assigned to (including boot camp or basic training) would require them to attend classes to learn English part of the time, and assigned tests they would have to pass. Their drill instructor must also be able to communicate in both English and their native language.

Pros:
A. Boosts the military with volunteers ready to work and fight for their new country.

B. Equips immigrants with the means to compete for and find higher paying jobs than the ones they would have to depend on should they remain in the country illegally.

C. Military training and the ability to communicate with the majority of the people in this country would fully enable first generation immigrants that choose this path to be fully integrated into their new country.

D. Would give multi-lingual teachers government paying jobs and military benefits.

E. Would help the INS and American citizens be able to sort out those immigrants who truly want to be here to earn a better life for themselves and their family and those who only want to come here to exploit the system and our tolerance.

F. Immigrants who choose to enter the military would be granted citizenship for them and their family, would gain military benefits, and would gain all of the other attributes that come with being in the military (such as increased work ethic and on-the-job experience).

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2. First time offenders 18 and over committed of crimes to be given the opportunity to either go through jail time or enter the military. Rape, murder, and the like would of course be excluded. I'm talking about things like possession of narcotics, simple assault (fist fight type stuff), D.U.I., and everything else that overpopulates our jails and prisons. I can explain in further detail if anybody would like. Anyway, those who choose to enter into 4 years in the military would have the offense that got them in there in the first place expunged from their record so that they can be better able to obtain jobs and be re-integrated into society when they are done with their military duties. Those charged crimes either while in would be subject to a dishonorable discharge and jail/prison time.

Pros:
A. Like the first instance, this helps to boost the military with volunteers.

B. Serves as a better source of rehabilitation than going to jail or prison (commonly referred to as a school for criminals).

C. Expunged records for first time offenders will ensure that they are not excluded from jobs when they are done with their required times (something which plagues ex-cons and makes it easy for them to become repeat offenders).

D. Will give those who choose military time on-the-job training as well as military experience (afformentioned above), and military benefits should they choose to retire with the military and get a pension.

E. Would dramatically lower jail and prison populations and save taxpayer dollars so that they could (hopefully) be used for something better (such as education).

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Now, as sure as my handle is "KontradictioN", there will probably be somebody who comes into this thread and frowns on this. Undoubtedly, I will be asked why I don't put my money where my mouth is and join the military instead of sitting on my ass and expecting immigrants to do so in order to gain a citizenship. To these people, I will tell you now that I do, in fact, plan on joining the military (Navy Reserve, to be specific) this fall in order to help pay for the remainder of my college education.

Also, to those who question why I believe that military experience would be better for rehabilitation than jail or prison time, I can point to my father as an example. My father was tried and convicted of simple assault in court when he was a kid. The judge gave him a choice of two years in prison or to enter the U.S. Marine Corps (this was during Vietnam). My father chose the U.S.M.C. and credits it for changing his life. He says that before he went there, he was an angry kid who did not care for authority or anybody else for that matter. He said serving equipped him with the tools necessary to live a better life.

So... thoughts?

***KontradictioN*** · 06-01-2010, 06:09 PM

Pretty stupid to one star this and not weigh in. I guess someone doesn't like the idea of actually working hard for something you want.

chicowalker · 06-01-2010, 06:37 PM

The first part is interesting. The question I have specific to this part is how quickly their English would improve and how that would affect their abilities as soldiers.

The second part is appealing in theory, but it worries me for 2 reasons. The first is that I think there are many laws that shouldn't exist. (Marijuana being illegal, for ex.) So my first approach to overburdened courts and prisons is to get rid of those laws, rather than making the "offenders" soldiers (should they so choose). My 2nd concern is the possible unintended consquence: would some judges then impose unnecessarily harsher sentences (or more lenient ones, if they don't like the law or our wars), reasoning that the offenders might choose to join our armed forces?

The big question I have, though, is how effective any of these people would be as soldiers. If you're doing it as the lesser of 2 evils, are you going to be committed to it? Will your fellow troops be able to count on you?

Mrs.PatsFanInVa · 06-01-2010, 06:45 PM

I think they're both pretty good ideas.

The military has, at various war times, recruited immigrants with temporary green cards. I see nothing wrong with your plan so long as the reasons the illegals were picked up in the first place were not serious crimes.

Stretched thin in Afghanistan and Iraq, the American military will begin recruiting skilled immigrants who are living in this country with temporary visas, offering them the chance to become United States citizens in as little as six months.

Immigrants who are permanent residents, with documents commonly known as green cards, have long been eligible to enlist. But the new effort, for the first time since the Vietnam War, will open the armed forces to temporary immigrants if they have lived in the United States for a minimum of two years, according to military officials familiar with the plan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/us/15immig.html

And yeah, I remember during Viet Nam when judges often offered those accused of petty crimes the choice of jail or enlistment. Happened to more than a few of my friends and acquaintances. I think they all chose enlistment and they all learned alot.

If it worked then I see no reason why it would not work now.

cupofjoe1962 · 06-01-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicowalker

The first part is interesting. The question I have specific to this part is how quickly their English would improve and how that would affect their abilities as soldiers.

The second part is appealing in theory, but it worries me for 2 reasons. The first is that I think there are many laws that shouldn't exist. (Marijuana being illegal, for ex.) So my first approach to overburdened courts and prisons is to get rid of those laws, rather than making the "offenders" soldiers (should they so choose). My 2nd concern is the possible unintended consquence: would some judges then impose unnecessarily harsher sentences (or more lenient ones, if they don't like the law or our wars), reasoning that the offenders might choose to join our armed forces?

The big question I have, though, is how effective any of these people would be as soldiers. If you're doing it as the lesser of 2 evils, are you going to be committed to it? Will your fellow troops be able to count on you?

Didn't you ever see the Dirty Dozen?

***KontradictioN*** · 06-01-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicowalker

The first part is interesting. The question I have specific to this part is how quickly their English would improve and how that would affect their abilities as soldiers.

Well, there are programs out there (such as Rosetta Stone) that make learnig a new language simpler. On top of that, these guys would be in classrooms for a portion of the time. English is one of the harder languages to learn, but a year should be a sufficient enough period of time. Believe me, if you're going to join the military in order to get into a country to better your life and the life of your family, the incentive will be there to learn English. As for affecting their abilities as soldiers, that's why I proposed to have multi-lingual teachers and drill instructors.

Quote:

The big question I have, though, is how effective any of these people would be as soldiers. If you're doing it as the lesser of 2 evils, are you going to be committed to it? Will your fellow troops be able to count on you?

Well, this would be up to their superiors. If they are charged with a crime or are non-hackers (to the point where they are singled out), the priviledge should be revoked and jail time will be the only option then.

JackBauer · 06-01-2010, 09:07 PM

I agree with all of your points. Certainly more feasible than mass deportation. I'd like to have this included in whatever policy portfolio ends up being crafted as immigration reform legislation.

Boston Boxer · 06-01-2010, 09:36 PM

as someone who is in the military...no thanks. There is some merit to your post (a very good post) but i just think the language barrier would be too great and it would take far to long to train these folks. You first would have to be able to comunicate, then start military training. I guess you could start a small program and see how long it would take to train them (both language and military). If it works then you could start doing it on a larger scale. It would probably cost way to much money in the first place. Also, you have folks in this country that did not have to serve in the military before they became citizens, so i dont know why these illegal folks would have to. I think them being forced to "volunteer" would end up weakening the military. Todays military is far more technical and advanced than it was 50-100 years ago where maybe this kind of thing would have worked.

***DarrylS*** · 06-02-2010, 06:48 AM

The unintended consequence of this plan is that it may encourage more illegal immigration... as someone told them about how "good" the military is.. it may become a reward and not a punishment..

TBradyOwnsYou · 06-02-2010, 06:59 AM

I'd be against.
They couldn't attend Basic/Boot because the main purpose is not just training someone to be a soldier, but teaching them to be part of a team, and not being able to communicate with that team would be a huge barrier. Not to mention requiring the DS/DI to be a constant terp would take away from their role as a teacher/leader. Also, there really isn't a lot of time to do extracurricular things like learn a language during basic (granted, I went a decade ago, so it might have changed a bit, but I doubt it's changed *that* much).
I will say though, I know multiple ESL soldiers who have done well in the military, though they were all legal and spoke english well.
Plus I personally see military service as an honor (ya, I'm biased :P) not as a punishment and I think if you commit a crime, you should be punished, not rewarded with citizenship or a clean record.

Side bar: What made you decide Navy?