apple strudel

Not really. Unions were strong in the 50s and 60s and workers had better salaries compared to today. Without vigilance, you lose collective strength of the union and your wages start declining. What do you think would happen to baseball player wages in 10 years if they absolved the union. I guarantee you they decline significantly (not that I'm not opposed to that since they're overpaid, but it shows the value of the union).

chicowalker

Btw, there was 1 other thing where you either misread or mischaracterized my response -- I stated that janitorial services are essential.

However, that doesn't mean the produce revenue or drive growth. They are a necessary expense, comparable to utility bills, phones and Internet connections. Those things are literally the costs of doing business -- but they don't cause the business to succeed.

apple strudel

Does it matter if it doesn't drive growth if the business doesn't exist if you take it away? This is exactly why unions are powerful. Further, the argument is not that the janitor should be paid the same or better than the CEO, it's that they should be paid better than they are and CEOs less. Value to the organization is still recognized, only attenuated.

PatriotsReign

Americans will never accept gov't controlled & regulated salaries...never.

And I suppose you'd support more equality in income across the population?

And add in "a job for everyone/anyone who wants one"?

Because surely you believe "everyone deserves about the same"

Well, I like the opportunity to make way more than most...not that I do, I just like knowing it's possible. Who'd want to live in a society where everyone has about the same? Not many....

__________________
"No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"

PatriotsReign

Strudel, I just LOVE how you wear your socialist/communist badge of dishonor on your signatire.

"Ah Pook"?? please help, I can't stand it

Are you kidding? Do you read ALL the anti-capitalists novels as well?

FYI...it is the socialist nations that are collapsing faster than any other...common sense should tell you why.

America: For lovers of Capitalism.

__________________
"No one walking this earth knows what is truly righteous"

chicowalker

Sure, but substantially less than Norway when compared to our population.

Also, I believe that the discovery of Norway's oil reserves being relatively recent had an interesting dynamic that isn't replicable here.

I also don't believe that government-owned companies is a good idea, an I don't think it works well in the America. I realize you likely agree with both of those beliefs. But there are more examples of government owned companies being a bad idea around the globe than good, I would wager.

It wasn't the crux of my argument -- it was merely an anecdote.

I think you may be right about Norwegians versus Americans. It's hard to generalize with such a large country, though. But there are plenty of people who believe in helping each other, just not through government. And I think that's a valid belief to hold as well.

Interestingly (to me, anyway), the Norwegian who I know best of the group here definitely fits your latter description rather than the fomer -- perhaps that's why he has stayed here rather than returning to Norway.

chicowalker

Some corporations, but not most. For most companies unions are simply irrelevant. If you want to talk about large-cap companies, I won't argue it either way - I don't know how many are unionized and how many have taken aggressive anti-union stances.

But most companies in the US are not large-caps. Most are small to midsized, and many of them treat their employees pretty well and the employees have little interest in unionizing. (Maybe they're of little interest to the unions, too -- I don't know.)

chicowalker

Of course it matters -- and if a janitor, or their union, gets overly aggressive, then whether they are essential starts to become a different equation. People can empty their own wastebaskets. Anybody can mop a floor. it's far from ideal, but it's certainly a viable option.

That's a legitimate argument, imo. Low-wage people may not be paid enough. I own a few companies, and we don't pay anybody minimum wage. We could probably do so, but we don't because we want better people than that, and we want the people who we do hire to be happy with us.

As for CEOs, when their comp is based on the latest and highest pay package of another CEO, rubber-stamped by a comp consulting firm the CEO hired and a board that isn't independent, I have an issue with that.

apple strudel

Here's some history. Interestingly enough the organization that went on to become the FBI is one of the first union busting agencies.

History of union busting in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a topical example. Walmart is the world's largest corporate employer.

No Union Please, We're Wal-Mart

The question of the relevancy of unions to many companies probably speaks more to the paltry organizing in the US more than anything else. Workers need to take the initiative to start a union. I work in software, and while there has been talk of unionizing in response to offshoring, most engineers are too afraid of losing their jobs to pick a fight with management.

chicowalker

Again, I don't deny that there have been periods of union busting, and Wal Mart certainly fits into the large cap category.

As for unions and smaller companies, maybe efforts their haven't been significant enough. Personally, I've seen positive and negative effects of unions, just like good and bad behavior by businesses. My only issue with unions is that I don't think a company should be legally required to deal with a union. You'll disagree with that, I'm sure. But I think companies should be free to deal with whatever employees, or employee reps, they choose, and vice versa. People can then make their own decisions about which companies they want to work for, do business, etc. (as can the government).