London Terror Attack Investigations Thwarted on the Street - New England Patriots Forums

***PatsWickedPissah*** · 03-07-2006, 03:36 PM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

In the eight months since Hussain and three other suicide bombers killed 52 people on the transport system here July 7, police have reconstructed parts of the plot in minute detail. They have found that the multiple attack was cheap as well as simple. It cost less than $5,000, said Det. Supt. Peter Wickstead, the chief of an anti-terrorism finance investigation unit, at a recent conference here.

But anti-terrorism officials say the investigations of the bombings and failed follow-up attacks on July 21 have been slow and difficult. Not only are extremist networks murky and fragmented, but investigators also have run into resistance and radicalization on the street: In a recent poll of British Muslims, almost a quarter of respondents said they felt some sympathy with the motives of the subway bombers.

"The absence of hard data on 7/7 is striking," Shamit Saggar, a political science professor at the University of Sussex, said at the conference at the Royal United Services Institute think tank. "The only way we can explain that is as a significant circle of tacit support existing in that community."

Three of the four dead bombers were middle-class Britons of Pakistani origin from the northern region of Yorkshire. Investigators suspect that they got help and training from an Al Qaeda network in Pakistan that had targeted Britain before. In contrast, the imprisoned would-be bombers who on July 21 tried to blow up three trains and a bus were East African refugees and ex-convicts based in London.
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Yet some folks exhibit classical ostrich behaviour and say that Islamism is not a threat to western civilizations. It may be too late already for Holland and France although Chirac seems to be waking up to his cultural problems.

***gomezcat*** · 03-07-2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsWickedPissah

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

In the eight months since Hussain and three other suicide bombers killed 52 people on the transport system here July 7, police have reconstructed parts of the plot in minute detail. They have found that the multiple attack was cheap as well as simple. It cost less than $5,000, said Det. Supt. Peter Wickstead, the chief of an anti-terrorism finance investigation unit, at a recent conference here.

But anti-terrorism officials say the investigations of the bombings and failed follow-up attacks on July 21 have been slow and difficult. Not only are extremist networks murky and fragmented, but investigators also have run into resistance and radicalization on the street: In a recent poll of British Muslims, almost a quarter of respondents said they felt some sympathy with the motives of the subway bombers.

"The absence of hard data on 7/7 is striking," Shamit Saggar, a political science professor at the University of Sussex, said at the conference at the Royal United Services Institute think tank. "The only way we can explain that is as a significant circle of tacit support existing in that community."

Three of the four dead bombers were middle-class Britons of Pakistani origin from the northern region of Yorkshire. Investigators suspect that they got help and training from an Al Qaeda network in Pakistan that had targeted Britain before. In contrast, the imprisoned would-be bombers who on July 21 tried to blow up three trains and a bus were East African refugees and ex-convicts based in London.
************

Yet some folks exhibit classical ostrich behaviour and say that Islamism is not a threat to western civilizations. It may be too late already for Holland and France although Chirac seems to be waking up to his cultural problems.

The problem is two fold. I was born and raised in Northern England, about 30 miles from Bradford. As correct as it is to blame Islamic extremism and the help that they got from others, it is also crucial to note that there is endemic racism in those towns. The Pakistanis came to our towns as cheap, post war labour, mainly to work in the cotton mills. To say that they weren't, and aren't, welcome is an understatement. Some of the racism I encountered in my fellow Northerners bordered on the satirical.
I was once working a night shift in a hospital in Bolton when there was a discussion about how "they were taking over". I suggested to my colleagues, sarcastically, "I bet they are up now, planning to build their next mosque". To my surprise, they agreed with me. That wasn't a rare example of racism and it grates with me as a Northerner.
Does that mean that immigrants are blameless? No way, but if I had been coming into that environment as an outsider, I wouldn't have integrated either. That in no way excuses extremism which is just another excuse for the depraved to kill, like they need one.
I wish to state for the record that the people who planned and did this are scum, IMO. I think that death is too good for them, especially as I am only just on the agnostic border of atheism. In an ideal world, we would torture the planners of this to a slow death. However, that would turn them into martyrs and create terrorists.
As a last point, I'd appreciate a little awareness in this thread. As you know, Miss Gcat and I live in London and it is her hometown. I also lost an ex-colleague on one of the trains.

All_Around_Brown · 03-07-2006, 04:20 PM

There is no question that Islamic radicalism has been drastically escalated since Bush took this nation to war on false pretenses...thanks Bushies for voting for this guy not just once, but twice!
Theres the ostrich syndrome at its finest.

Turd Furguson · 03-07-2006, 05:03 PM

There is?

So what escalated all those OTHER Islamic radical acts of terrorism prior to Jan. 2000?

Remember those?

***PatsWickedPissah*** · 03-08-2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All_Around_Brown

There is no question that Islamic radicalism has been drastically escalated since Bush took this nation to war on false pretenses...thanks Bushies for voting for this guy not just once, but twice!
Theres the ostrich syndrome at its finest.

Yes, if we did nothing and ignored the problem maybe the next 9/11 would be some OTHER city and not ours, not our families. The alligator would eat someone else first. Let's hide and be last. Maybe the Islamists really won't get nukes. Maybe...

***PatsWickedPissah*** · 03-08-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomezcat

The problem is two fold. I was born and raised in Northern England, about 30 miles from Bradford. As correct as it is to blame Islamic extremism and the help that they got from others, it is also crucial to note that there is endemic racism in those towns. The Pakistanis came to our towns as cheap, post war labour, mainly to work in the cotton mills. To say that they weren't, and aren't, welcome is an understatement. Some of the racism I encountered in my fellow Northerners bordered on the satirical.
I was once working a night shift in a hospital in Bolton when there was a discussion about how "they were taking over". I suggested to my colleagues, sarcastically, "I bet they are up now, planning to build their next mosque". To my surprise, they agreed with me. That wasn't a rare example of racism and it grates with me as a Northerner.
Does that mean that immigrants are blameless? No way, but if I had been coming into that environment as an outsider, I wouldn't have integrated either. That in no way excuses extremism which is just another excuse for the depraved to kill, like they need one.

Not as a slam on the UK which normally I enjoy doing for sport, but racisism against Pakistanis et. al. has been common in the UK (just as the US too has folks who are racists - seperate topic). Referred to as 'Pakis', a derogatory term, the folks have had difficulty assimilating. The problem is twofold, first many European countries are not the easiest cultures to assimilate into (France and Germany are notably the most difficult) and secondly many Muslim immigrants have a cultural predilection to isolate themselves, even more so than the normal ethnic & religious solidarity seen with any new immigrant culture. Result - a populace strongly estranged from the native European culture. Problem - the rise in Islamic Fundamentalism at odds with Western culture with a violent predilection takes easy root in a segment of the community. Others in the immigrant community either ignore, fear for reprisals or ostracism, or sympathize with the fundies objectives if not their means.

***gomezcat*** · 03-08-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsWickedPissah

Not as a slam on the UK which normally I enjoy doing for sport, but racisism against Pakistanis et. al. has been common in the UK (just as the US too has folks who are racists - seperate topic). Referred to as 'Pakis', a derogatory term, the folks have had difficulty assimilating. The problem is twofold, first many European countries are not the easiest cultures to assimilate into (France and Germany are notably the most difficult) and secondly many Muslim immigrants have a cultural predilection to isolate themselves, even more so than the normal ethnic & religious solidarity seen with any new immigrant culture. Result - a populace strongly estranged from the native European culture. Problem - the rise in Islamic Fundamentalism at odds with Western culture with a violent predilection takes easy root in a segment of the community. Others in the immigrant community either ignore, fear for reprisals or ostracism, or sympathize with the fundies objectives if not their means.

I think that's fair enough. To your list of countries in which it is difficult to assimilate, I would add Austria. For my BA, I studied German so was fluent at one point (you know, nearly as good as you lot are at English. Some of you could be taken for native speakers.

). I spent half an academic year in Vienna. I found that I was welcome because my face fitted and I spoke the language. The barriers really did go up for other immigrants.

Oh, and I have read quite a few things about WMDs and terrorists (from a wide range of sources) which tell me that the question isn't IF they are going to be used, but WHEN.

All_Around_Brown · 03-08-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatsWickedPissah

Yes, if we did nothing and ignored the problem maybe the next 9/11 would be some OTHER city and not ours, not our families. The alligator would eat someone else first. Let's hide and be last. Maybe the Islamists really won't get nukes. Maybe...

....Maybe invading a sovereign oil rich nation in the middle east is exactly what Bin Ladens wahhabi extremists expected some ignorant reactionary like Bush and his band of neo-con criminals would do....thus rallying the Islamic extremists in not only Iraq, but Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, India, Malaysia, AND Europe. hmmmmmm....sounds like an devious plan thats playing out before our eyes.

The military is too blunt an instrument to be fighting terrorism, but you still haven't figured that out yet. I wonder what would have happened if England bombed Ireland back to the stone age to fight the IRA.

***PatsWickedPissah*** · 03-08-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomezcat

I think that's fair enough. To your list of countries in which it is difficult to assimilate, I would add Austria.

And how could we of all countries have forgotten to mention the Swiss?

***363839*** · 03-08-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gomezcat

I think that's fair enough. To your list of countries in which it is difficult to assimilate, I would add Austria. For my BA, I studied German so was fluent at one point (you know, nearly as good as you lot are at English. Some of you could be taken for native speakers.

). I spent half an academic year in Vienna. I found that I was welcome because my face fitted and I spoke the language. The barriers really did go up for other immigrants.

Oh, and I have read quite a few things about WMDs and terrorists (from a wide range of sources) which tell me that the question isn't IF they are going to be used, but WHEN.

I particularly liked the comment that we Americans speak pretty good English and that one might think we were natives.

I am a relocated New Englander here in the Midwest ( Chicagoland).
So, I am frequently getting comments about my accent. You know, the whole dropped "R"s crime we New Englanders are accused of.

I counter this by telling people that the Brits don't seem to have much use for Rs either. They invented the language. So who is speaking with the accent?

I was wondering if you had any insight into this phenomenom(sp?) being the well educated and articulate individual you are.