Patters

This link beautifully expresses one important reason why many liberals oppose the war in Iraq. The lyrics are by a UK vet.

http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

Even though some of you will disagree with it, I think you'll find it powerful.

shirtsleeve

Every thread posted in earnest deserves a response. Here is mine.

War is always sad. War is always brutal. War is always cruel. No one has ever wanted to fight in one, at least once they found themselves in combat. Nations always owe it to their soldiers to find the best possible end to the ones they find themselves in.

The song and the lyrics are far too political and slanderous to the men who find themselves there. They are doing a job that their nation sent them to do. They should be filled with pride and honor to do so. I am filled with awe and respect and indebtedness to and for them.

The reasons for the war, the correctness of the war, the events that led us to war are irrellevent. The real question is: how does this nation end this conflict in such a manner that will ensure a free and independant Iraq, peaceful to its neighbors, and tolerent to all of its citizens.

This is the debate that needs to occur now. Regardless of reason, we are at war on the other side of the globe, and we need to find the best possible end to this conflict, to show the respect to these honorable men and women.

mikey

The reason for the war is not irrelevant.

The correctness of the war is not irrelevant.

The events that led us to the war is not irrelevant.

The was was based on LIES.

2,300 innocent American soldiers are dead.

Thousands of innocent Iraq chilldren are dead.

Those numbers are not irrevelant.

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Turd Furguson

Like shirtsleeve said, agree with or not, the horse is out of the barn and cannot be put back in.

The biggest question is, how can we get out of Iraq without it spilling over into a total clusterfrack?

shirtsleeve

Those issues are not irrellevent in and of themselves. Dont misconstrue irrellevent to the problem at hand with irrellevent to the personal tradgedy of their loss.

War is a tradgedy, always. Many people, some of them non combatants die, always. These are the brutal, sad givens of war, always.

Screaming "Impeach Bush" will not get them back. Screaming "the war is unjust" won't either. Instead of politicically thrashing the issue, and looking to pin blame for the war (which not all think is unjust or unneeded) let us, for a change, debate the proper end to this conflict, as I stated above. Let us try to debate and discuss this more important topic and try to come up with a resolution to the fighting which includes a free Iraq, peaceful to its neighbors, and tolerant of all of its citizens. We owe THIS to our soldiers. They dont deserve the backbiting and secondguessing of their mission. Now that it has started, show respect to our men and women in uniform by having a constructive debate on how to end their mission with the same pride and honor that they have displayed.

shirtsleeve

My point exactly, Turd. Any first thoughts?

Turd Furguson

Its hard to say given that we dont know (or at least I dont know) the real capability of Iraq's military/police force. I think they need to set acceptable levels of capability and then start reducing troop levels as a sort of trade off. As one Iraqi unit joins the fray, one American unit departs it and so on and so forth.

I feel Iraq's leadership needs to have a stronger voice/presence either at the U.N or in the media. I hardly hear anything from them.

Thirdly, I think our very own media needs to start focusing on these very issues and what can be done going forward instead of constantly re-hashing Abu-Ghraib and Cindy Sheehan. Should we totally forget or bury under the rug all the abuses and negligent mistakes that have been made? Of course not. But lets not forget that they are in fact, a very small percentage of what is really happening with our fine fighting/peacekeeping force over there.

mikey

I thought the biggest question is not about the war.

I thought the biggest question is about this country.

It is about the integrity and morality of this country.

This is about the most powerful nation on earth stooping to the same level as those savages who attacked our people.

It is about this Christian nation that perpetrated some of the most heinous inhuman atrocities seen in modern war time.

It is about this God-fearing nation who have no problem butchering children in Baghdad.

This is about church-going bible-quoting Christians who have no problems telling lies and sending other people's children to die for their lies.

That is what I think is the biggest issue about this immoral and illegal war.


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Turd Furguson

So where do we go from here Mikey? Look forwards for a change

mikey

Hmmm ... are we actually having a civilized discussion here???



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