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Let me begin by saying I know very little about the three candidates in this race, outside of what I've read in any articles. I'm not from NY obviously, so who wins is up to the people that live there. That being said, this race has me excited. Why you may ask? Well, because it's a people's fight against the establishment. In this race, which is a special election, the GOP big wigs inserted an establishment type candidate, and the people are giving them, and her, the bird. I say good for them. This is why I hate party politics. Read the article, and some of the points made by everyone involved, and you'll see the different reasons why decisions are made. Some feel that winning the seat is the most important aspect. Some others feel that principles are what matter. Clearly, the establishment GOP wants to win the seat, regardless of who they put in. If the person in question doesn't really fall into their belief system, it's ok, so long as they have an R next to their name. While i understand why parties do this, it's not my style at all. Principle should always win out. At any rate, my excitement here, has everything to do with the fact that principle is what's giving Hoffman a shot. Those supporting him feel as I do on most things, which is that it's better to lose (in this case that would mean the dem beating both candidates) sticking up for what you believe, than it is to compromise your charactor, for the sake of winning an election. Kudos to them. The more people demand accountability, the sooner the powers that be will deliver it.
We've discussed this in the forum after the November election. What would happen to the GOP? Which direction would it go in? Would it moderate, or would it return to it's core principles? Would the issue with identification lead to it split into multiple parties? I think this race is the start of that struggle.
BTW, I'm under no illusions about Hoffman's affiliation. People like Lieberman, that dude in Vermont, Hoffman, etc. are all likely to caucus with one party, even if they aren't technically affiliated with them. Still, we've got to start somewhere. Remember, lessons need to be learned.
New York race at epicenter of a GOP mutiny
Many conservative voters are rejecting the party nominee in a special House election, leaving leaders to rethink the Republican Party's identity.
excerpts:
Quote:
In fact, Johnson and many other conservatives want to use a Nov. 3 special election to teach the GOP a lesson about sticking to conservative values -- even though that lesson could mean the party loses a House seat it has held for decades. The conservatives are backing a third-party candidate, splitting the Republican vote and giving the Democrat a lead in some recent opinion polls.
"Both parties seem to be more for big government," said Johnson, a probation clerk in Fulton, N.Y. "The Republicans need to learn that the people they are running [for office] do not represent the views of the people."
Quote:
But Gingrich and many other Republican leaders say that if the party is to win nationally and in swing districts like this one, it cannot move too far to the right.
Support for Hoffman, they argue, is a recipe for electing the Democrat, lawyer Bill Owens. That may allow Republicans to maintain their ideological purity, they say, but it will not win the elections needed to oust Democrats from power.
"We have to decide which business we are in," Gingrich said on his website after conservatives derided his endorsement of Scozzafava. "If we are in the business of feeling good about ourselves while our country gets crushed, then I probably made the wrong decision."
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
Last edited by Real World; 10-27-2009 at 01:23 PM..
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This is the most important race in the country this year IMO. As usual the stupid pubbies don't get it. After the tea parties and protest at town halls all over the country this year, the let 11 party hacks in NY pick a lib RINO as a candidate.
Palin bucked the establishment pubbies and endorsed Hoffman based on his position rather than party. The RNC gave money to Dede the rino, Gingrich denounced Palin's support of Hoffman, then Thompson, S Forbes, M Bachman, D Armey & Santorum chose principles over party. Now Hoffman is leading by 5% over the dem and Dede's support is collapsing:
The RNC will have major egg on it's face if a non pol comes in and takes out their candidate and the dem. It seems they would like to leverage the tea party and townhall folks, people want conservative principles not party hustle.
40% of people identify as conservative according to Gallup's latest poll. This ex Clinton official writing in the New Republic see a problem for the dems but misses that this is about small gov principals not pubbie politics.
If Hoffman wins this is a coup for Palin since she is the first pubbie to step outside the box and choose principles over party politics. The pubbie establishment hates/fears Palin almost as much as the dems.
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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
I get excited when I see the establishment of a party get bltch slapped by it's own people. This is a prime example of why I think Newt is a fraud fony. I'm going to read Thompsons comments. He was one of my favorite candidates in November. When he wasn't sleeping on the stump of course.
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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." Leo Tolstoy, 1897
I am struck by how clueless the political class is about the anger among the citizens and how they want to peddle a brand instead of standing for principle. Hopefully this guy wil win and shake up the establishment.
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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
This is the most important race in the country this year IMO. As usual the stupid pubbies don't get it. After the tea parties and protest at town halls all over the country this year, the let 11 party hacks in NY pick a lib RINO as a candidate.
Palin bucked the establishment pubbies and endorsed Hoffman based on his position rather than party. The RNC gave money to Dede the rino, Gingrich denounced Palin's support of Hoffman, then Thompson, S Forbes, M Bachman, D Armey & Santorum chose principles over party. Now Hoffman is leading by 5% over the dem and Dede's support is collapsing:
The RNC will have major egg on it's face if a non pol comes in and takes out their candidate and the dem. It seems they would like to leverage the tea party and townhall folks, people want conservative principles not party hustle.
40% of people identify as conservative according to Gallup's latest poll. This ex Clinton official writing in the New Republic see a problem for the dems but misses that this is about small gov principals not pubbie politics.
If Hoffman wins this is a coup for Palin since she is the first pubbie to step outside the box and choose principles over party politics. The pubbie establishment hates/fears Palin almost as much as the dems.
Actually that last real poll had the numbers at Owens (D) 35%, Scozzafava (R) 30%, Hoffman (C) 23%.
Actually that last real poll had the numbers at Owens (D) 35%, Scozzafava (R) 30%, Hoffman (C) 23%.
The RCP poll cited was from last weekend, what real poll are you citing?
When was it taken?
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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
Palin bucked the establishment pubbies and endorsed Hoffman based on his position rather than party.
Do you think that's why she did it? Or did she do it because it will increase her position as a "maverick?" Or because she's testing the waters for her own next move? I think she knows she's a bit too extreme for many Republicans and Independants - as well as for most Democrats. But if she can establish early on (such as now) just how much support a third party can gather together she will have a better idea of what way she wants to go in furthering her own political career. Without getting into the whole Palin debate it seems to me that most of what Sarah is interested in is Sarah - and that she does very little which will not somehow either call attention to herself or further her own interests. (Not uncommon for most politicians, I know, but she seems a bit more blatant than most.)
Quote:
The RNC will have major egg on it's face if a non pol comes in and takes out their candidate and the dem.
True, but there is equally strong potential for it to backfire, as well. A party divided cannot stand for the most part. Doesn't this put most of the pressure on The Independants? And doesn't it put most of the power in their hands? Very conservative Republicans are, of course, going to back the very conservative candidate - I'm sure they're thrilled because they've got some place to go here - but the less radically inclined conservatives are not going to budge - they're going to vote for The Republican candidate, who's going to get straight line party votes, yes, but is also going to garner those conservatives who don't hold with the far right line - and there are still a good number of them around. The Dems are going to get the Democratic party line vote and they're also going to get some Independants. Most Independant voters are NOT far right leaners - if they were, they would not be Independants, would they? So they're going to split their vote between the left leaning and the convervative leaning - but I truly doubt they're going to go all the way to the far right and vote for the third party conservative. I
It could very well end up that not only will the new party end up with egg on it's face but that it will turn the election over to The Democrats - and no matter how much anyone decries people voting party lives vs personal opinion lines, it lines up that way and it ends up that way. Is it better to let your most hated opponent get the seat and therefore the "power" for the next 4 years or is it better to give it to someone who you only slightly disagree with but who, basically, holds your same core values at heart?
Quote:
40% of people identify as conservative according to Gallup's latest poll. This ex Clinton official writing in the New Republic see a problem for the dems but misses that this is about small gov principals not "pubbie politics."
It's the same people, isn't it? The same people who vote for small government principals also vote for pubbie politics. The only difference is the amount of them voting in any given elections - their politics remain the same.
Quote:
If Hoffman wins this is a coup for Palin since she is the first pubbie to step outside the box and choose principles over party politics. The pubbie establishment hates/fears Palin almost as much as the dems.
Back to my first question. If Hoffman loses what does it become for Palin?
The RCP poll cited was from last weekend, what real poll are you citing?
When was it taken?
On the 23rd. But my poll was taken by R2K, a well-known polling firm with a good reputation.
Your poll was taken by something called Neighborhood Research, which polled the district for Minuteman PAC, the political arm of the Minuteman Movement. Plus the poll has a sample size of 366 voters, which means it has an enormous margin of error.
On the 23rd. But my poll was taken by R2K, a well-known polling firm with a good reputation.
Your poll was taken by something called Neighborhood Research, which polled the district for Minuteman PAC, the political arm of the Minuteman Movement. Plus the poll has a sample size of 366 voters, which means it has an enormous margin of error.
Link?
'My" poll was linked from RCP a legit site.
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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."
NY 23rd District: I love this.
If Hoffman loses what does it become for Palin?
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