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Old 10-19-2009, 05:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Long Shadow of Willie Horton

I think we should grant more pardons , all while being swifter with our use of capital punishment.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:13 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Long Shadow of Willie Horton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack View Post
Thank you for letting me be the judge and, in my judgement, there is nothing racist in that ad. The simple fact that Horton happens to be black does not make it racist.
How is that ad offensive to black people? Again, the entire thesis of your argument seems to be (paraphrasing) "the ad is racist because Horton is black." I see nothing in that ad which stereotypes people or is offensive to any culture.
I think a furlough program for non-violent offenders who are within, say, 1 or 2 years of re-entering society is a good idea. I do not consider any of those examples you gave to be non-violent offenders.

There is no "technicality" at issue here. The Massachusetts Legislature passed a bill preventing furloughs to convicted felons in jail for life without possibility of parole. Mike Dukakis vetoed that legislation. That is not a technicality - that is a very serious and deliberate action that deserves to be mentioned when debating whether or not he would be a good President.

Do you think it is a good idea to allow a felon in jail for life without parole a chance to go on a weekend furlough?
The technicality is that the the Republicans chose to parse the issue so that it was only about furloughs for first degree murderers. This was absurd, since many states offered furlough programs for equally bad criminals who either plea-bargained or were guilty of technically lesser crimes, such as child abuse. In the ad, the Republicans chose to use a scary looking photo of Horton, what was felt by some to be a stereotype of the dangerous black man, and use him as a symbol of the sort of man that would be released on society if Dukakis was president. In addition, I believe the ad was run most often in southern states where the race issue resonates differently than in the north.

I'm not against rehabilitation programs for violent prisoners, but it must be done with great care. For instance, if a criminal tortured and murdered people who abused him at a young age, I would at least consider giving him a second chance after a long sentence. If a criminal committed an act of violence as a result of delusions created by prescription or even illegal drugs, I would consider the possibility that this person could re-enter society at some point.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Patters View Post
The technicality is that the the Republicans chose to parse the issue so that it was only about furloughs for first degree murderers. This was absurd, since many states offered furlough programs for equally bad criminals who either plea-bargained or were guilty of technically lesser crimes, such as child abuse.
And if the governors of those states were running for President, I woudl have considered it an euqally valid campaign issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patters View Post
In the ad, the Republicans chose to use a scary looking photo of Horton, what was felt by some to be a stereotype of the dangerous black man, and use him as a symbol of the sort of man that would be released on society if Dukakis was president. In addition, I believe the ad was run most often in southern states where the race issue resonates differently than in the north.
A "scary looking photo" of a man who viciously murdered an innocent person? That's really what you are going with to demonstrate that it is racist? The fact that they used a "scary looking photo"?

You're just looking for something that isn't there, but instead seeing what you want to see. You want to believe Republicans are racists so you see racism where none exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patters View Post
I'm not against rehabilitation programs for violent prisoners, but it must be done with great care. For instance, if a criminal tortured and murdered people who abused him at a young age, I would at least consider giving him a second chance after a long sentence. If a criminal committed an act of violence as a result of delusions created by prescription or even illegal drugs, I would consider the possibility that this person could re-enter society at some point.
OK, now let me please ask the same question again since you didn't answer it. Do you think it is a good idea to allow a felon in jail for life without parole a chance to go on a weekend furlough?
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Old 10-20-2009, 02:40 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Long Shadow of Willie Horton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack
And if the governors of those states were running for President, I would have considered it an equally valid campaign issue.
I understand that, but the issue was parsed in a way to isolate Dukakis without bringing any Republican governors into the issue.

The Harvard Crimson :: Opinion :: Assault on Furloughs

"In defense of Dukakis, sympathetic pundits point out that the Massachusetts furlough program was instituted under Dukakis' predecessor, Republican Ed King, and that California had an almost identical program under then-Governor Ronald Reagan. They remind voters that as Vice President, Bush never objected to the furlough program for federal prisoners, even when a convicted murderer raped a woman in Arizona while on a weekend furlough."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack
A "scary looking photo" of a man who viciously murdered an innocent person? That's really what you are going with to demonstrate that it is racist? The fact that they used a "scary looking photo"?
The Republican Party's Southern strategy was well known and is heavily documented. They were not and are not trusted by blacks. Who would better know the face of racism than those who have been victims of it? Just as some veterans think liberals are anti-veteran, just as some religious folk think that liberals are anti-Chrisitianity, just as some gays think that conservatives are anti-gay, etc., it's a matter of perception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack
You're just looking for something that isn't there, but instead seeing what you want to see. You want to believe Republicans are racists so you see racism where none exists.
I believe there is considerable racism among Republicans, largely because Republicans chose to recruit them in order to win the south. It's something they've actually been doing since at least Nixon, after the Democrats under JFK/LBJ bravely chose to reject the racist wing of the Party. I tend to trust the victims of discrimination when it comes to issue like prejudice. In fact, in this forum, some of the conservative members have sensitized me to religious and anti-veteran prejudice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack
OK, now let me please ask the same question again since you didn't answer it. Do you think it is a good idea to allow a felon in jail for life without parole a chance to go on a weekend furlough?
You missed my answer: I'm not against rehabilitation programs for violent prisoners, but it must be done with great care. For instance, if a criminal tortured and murdered people who abused him at a young age, I would at least consider giving him a second chance after a long sentence. If a criminal committed an act of violence as a result of delusions created by prescription or even illegal drugs, I would consider the possibility that this person could re-enter society at some point. (In a furlough, a prisoner re-enters society on a trial basis.)
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