shmessy

Once again, it isn't the gun that's the problem.

It's the people with weapons fetishes that are the problem.

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PatsFanInVa

Kontra, you do a fair job of repeating a point made by Michael Moore in Bowling for Columbine. In it he illustrated how Canadians are armed to the teeth, much like Americans, and yet have a tiny fraction of the gun violence we have. He really didn't have much of an answer for it himself. Something about the vitriolic culture, I believe.

At any rate:

While it is true that guns cannot pick themselves up and shoot themselves, it is also the case that human beings cannot point their fingers, say "bang," and have bullets come out of said fingers and into the bodies of either attackers, loved ones, or innocent bystanders.

Guns are much more deadly and much more effective than other commonly available tools of interpersonal violence. As such, they are the perfect weapon for the great majority of killers, who act in the heat of passion. Far fewer people are comfortable with messy work with knives and baseball bats than with the act of shooting someone from a distance.

A gun is handy for the "savage" we always talk about here. Or it is handy for really really making a point you can't take back in an argument in a poker game or with a girlfriend. It is handy for cowards. It is handy for people who fear their small stature prevents them from being effective without a weapon or with less effective weapons -- such as knives or baseball bats.

Boil it all down, and what you find is that widespread availability of firearms is a good force multiplier for interpersonal violence.

People with guns kill people, your self-satisfied bromides aside.

PFnV

PatsFanInVa

Well, them and the far-left nobel prize guys.

Somebody shoot me.

PFnV

Mrs.PatsFanInVa

No, Dude, trust me -

or better yet, trust the statistics:

Murders + Weapons Used:

Guns 64

handguns 52

cutting tools 13.3

blunt objects 5.3

personal violence 6.7

strangulation/asphyxiation 2.2

fire 0.9

all others 6.7

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus...pons_used.html

The point, which you seem to keep missing, is not guns kill people/people kill people - the point is - it's much harder to kill someone with any method other than a gun. Shooting is easy - beating someone to death, strangling them, knifing them, setting them on fire - that's all hit or miss. Sure, you can be intending to kill them but it's just not as easy as it sounds.....with anything other than a gun you have to get all up close and personal - which makes it much more likely that the intended victim is going to be able to fight back - or run away before you succeed. Plus, it takes time to kill someone with any other method - and time is a victim's friend. They can scream, they can knock things around, they can attract attention. By the time a bullet attracts attention it's already done it's dirty work.

Guns are far and away more dangerous than any other tool.

Think about it, would ya? What are guns made for? What's their purpose? To kill things, right? They have absolutely no other reason for existing.

Knives, on the other hand, are multi-purpose. (As are bats, broom sticks, ropes, blunt objects of all sorts and fire.) Sure, they can be used to hurt someone - but that's not their express purpose. Knives are for cutting, bats are for hitting balls, broom sticks are for brooms, ropes are for tying things together, fire is for cooking and heating.

When objects are created for a reason they tend to be the best there is at doing what they were created for. Hence, if you want to kill something living, a gun is your best bet. The rest of the objects you've mentioned as equally dangerous just aren't - simply because they aren't being used to do what they were created for doing - they're filling in for something else.

Don't be deliberately obtuse - and don't be so condensending. It's unattractive and you have no idea what you're talking about other than spouting NRA bull*****.

We all know that guns don't pick themselves up and pull their own trigger - just like we all know that the odds of someone dying if there's not a gun around for someone to pick up are much lower than if there is.

KontradictioN

Wow. Guns kill people more often than anything else? You don't say!

Your original post, and posts since then, seemed to suggest that if there wasn't a gun in the house then there was a HUGE chance that the crime wouldn't be committed. If I was wrong about that then please correct me. Now, in this story, it explicitly details the fact that the children ran down the street shouting, "daddy killed mommy". That would entail that it was the dad who snapped and pulled the trigger first. Now, going by what I know, men are TYPICALLY stronger than a woman. In this story, daddy was quite obviously pissed off. Now, let's take the gun, blunt objects, and knives out of the equation. Even then, with how pissed off daddy is, there is still the huge chance that he kills mommy either by beating her to death with his two fists or strangling her. Sure, she can scream and fight back and do whatever she can to survive, like you said. However, the chances of the neighbors hearing that unless they are outside at the time is remote. Even if they do, she's either dead or in a coma anyway. The point of the matter is that, gun or not, there would have been a kill that night. Maybe the suicide of the husband would have been prevented without the gun being involved. But the murder? Probably not.

On top of that, for your stats, all that tells me is the amount of idiots that own guns in this country... which was my point in another thread. However, there isn't a foolproof way to limit guns to idiots that I know of, outside of giving an IQ test to everyone that bought a handgun (which would then be deemed unconstitutional).

Not everyone views a gun as using it specifically to kill someone. I own a gun and I don't go out everyday thinking, "well god damn, who am I going to kill today?". I have a gun for one reason, and one reason only: protection. The gun only leaves my home in the event that I'm taking it to a range to shoot with it so please stop making the objects out to be merely instruments of death for use only by psychos who want to murder people because it simply isn't like that. Your only complaint should be about guns in the wrong person's hands. I would agree with that assessment. I know it was far too easy for me to purchase a handgun. All I had to do was bring some money and sign some papers. A couple of weeks later, I picked up a Glock. I'm all for gun control. The wrong people should not be allowed to own a firearm. However, like I said before, there is no foolproof way to defend against that.

As far as your "point" about stabbing and blunt objects, if someone wants to kill someone else then they are going to do it. No matter what. Your stats only told me how many people and/or idiots in this country possess firearms. However, if firearms didn't exist then people would find other ways to take out others that they don't like. A gun just makes it easier because it's quick and convenient. If I wanted to kill one of my friends and didn't have a gun, I could just as easily pick up my cordless house phone and beat him over the head with it when he isn't looking. Does that mean cordless phones should be outlawed in your line of thinking?

Kind of makes me want to know of the murder rate in the periods before guns were around and swords/blunt objects were the only things to use. We all hear that it was pretty high, however I don't think anybody kept tallies back then...

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KontradictioN

Or just idiots as a whole. However, that's not what the Mrs is saying. Tell me, would it be Constitutional to to hault the sale of guns to everyone and have them removed from every household with one registered because there are idiots out there using them to commit murders?

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DarrylS

About as "stupit" as your response, responding to threads is voluntary on this board, if you think it is stupid do not respond...then again if you have to ask you will not understand.

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Mrs.PatsFanInVa

Here's a couple of questions for you, Kontra.

Do you think Abraham Lincoln, John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King would have been assissinated if not for the use of a gun or would the need to get up close and personal have thwarted most any other type of attempt?

Would Columbine have occured? Would the VTU massacre have killed as many students and teachers? Would the Amish children in Penn. still be alive if the killer had to kill them each individually with his hands?

As for your insisting that the murder/suicide which began this thread would have taken place minus a gun - get real. I was married to a guy like that - and I took my lumps like a good little frightened bunny for longer than I care to admit - but I'm still here to attest to that fact. Had there been a gun available I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be. People can take a hell of beating and survive - but usually only one well placed (or lucky shot) bullet.

I've witnessed many unsuccessful suicide attempts by knives, ropes, pills, posions but I've only seen one unsuccessful self-shooting.

How many innocent bystanders have you read about who were accidentally killed by a drive-by stabbing?

There's a reason guns are the weapon of choice for people who are serious about killing someone - and that reason is, they work so much better than any other weapon available.

Mrs.PatsFanInVa

A man who thought there was an intruder in his house shot and killed his fiancee the day before they were to be married, police said Friday.

Cops: Man kills fiancee 1 day before wedding - Crime & courts- msnbc.com

Now how alive do you think she'd be if he'd had to get close enough to see her to kill her?

shmessy

Kontra, face it. Idiots who are malevolent tend to gravitate towards guns. Now, I'm not saying that all gun owners are idiots or malevolent, far from it. But there is a significant amount of anti-social (read those reports, the neighbors all say that the Hains did not mingle with anyone in the community) and malevolent people who gravitate to guns like a magnet.

Why need a gun unless you are either suspicious, scared, untrusting or just hate other people? There are plenty of good people who are scared. There are plenty of damaged people who are suspicious and untrusting. And there are plenty of evil people who just hate other people.

Sorry if I don't wax poetic about the glories of gun showmanship as much as Mrs. Hain did.

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"They (Patriots) may be the greatest team ever" - Chris Mortenson, January 18, 2005 on espn.com