Wildo7

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...mo20020801.pdf

Here are the 2005 Bradbury and Bybee ones:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...s_released.php

PatsFanInEaglesLand

I agree, but we disagree on what exactly torture is.

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IcyPatriot

I wouldn't have done it that many times ... I would have mixed it up a bit ... saving the waterboarding for special occasions.

tanked_as_usual

who cares what you think......

but I do believe the cab drivers life was worth more than yours

tanked_as_usual

I'd still be waterboarding him now..........10x a day for the rest of his life

according to the libbies, he'd be used to it by now, and might even like it........but I don't believe that.......he'd be calling me allah by the time I was done with him

PatsFanInVa

I've read a couple dubious statements here:

- They got what they deserved for the real planners, a maybe on this one, but I'm not God... are you?;

- and what needed to be done absolutely not. I'm pretty sure you've got whatever intel you're getting way before #183.

- Tanked spews out "something about..." followed by some imagined half-remembered third-hand knowledge of torture as a means of interrogation. I found it highly dubious, see second point above.

Really, I am not a professional torturer. If any of you guys are, feel free to identify yourselves. However, I do know that the intelligence community does not think it's a good way to get reliable information.

If you are getting information every time you waterboard the guy, and feel time #182 didn't get him to his breaking point, I suppose you reach that conclusion by running down the leads you obtained. So at least 182 times, the waterboarding was not the effective tactic it was painted as, at least in the minds of the waterboarders.

Here's another thought:

There is a school of thought on torture, usually engaged in by sadists who quite enjoy their work, that goes like this:

First you get resistance.

Then you get some story that doesn't check out.

Then you get a story that does check out in parts.

Then you get the whole story.

Here's where it gets nasty.

Then when he thinks he's told you the whole story, you go for the point where he's spewing out anything, truth, lies, whatever, hoping you will stop, and you chase down every lead, just in case he spewed out something he forgot before in his miserable and desperate state.

But I would submit that if #1-182 didn't get him there, #183 sure as hell didn't.

Beyond these facts, there is the question of whether the U.S. should be engaged in torture. The so-called "ticking bomb" scenario, in which Keiffer Sutherland repeatedly tells people how much he hates doing what he needs to do, then tortures them, because an actual attack is underway... NEVER HAPPENS. The "ticking bomb" was certainly not the case with the Gitmo detainees.

And beyond that fact, the lefties here are quite right to ask about the cab driver who got essentially the same treatment.

And if they didn't know it was wrong, why all the happy horseshi* about how everybody breaks after 45 seconds?

Frankly, "because it's fun", in tandem with appeals to lost loved ones from 9/11, disgusts me.

9/11 is not a blank check to become whatever we hate about the other guy.

Because human suffering is fun? Hey, he's the bad guy, sure. But when it's fun to see them suffer, all you've done is given license to your own sadism based on a superstructure of self-justification. Torquemada felt the same way, I'm sure.

So if that's the way you view torture, hell, get yourself a playmate with a safeword, and keep it consensual. Your analysis is psychosexual, not political.

PFnV

patsfan13

The guy who ran the CIA after the waterboarding was stopped, said it yielded very valuable including info that led to the capture of KSM, among others.

Is the memo real, if so who leaked it? Why? perhaps due to the pushback from Obama releasing the other memos last week.

I fon't know if I would take a NYT story without the physical memo at face value.

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Wildo7

lol. you seriously are a little kid sometimes, it's great.

reflexblue

Coming...I know you are, but what am I.

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tanked_as_usual

so my stuff is dubious ........ but yours is what?

repetition is a huge part of any means to extract information........

so stop being a jackarse that thinks you know better.......you're not.....you just make yourself sound like a hypocritical idiot

but getting back to the torture......never said it was fun......but based on the 9/11, and the kinds of things that came out of the same people (the daniel pearl beheading), I have absolutely no problems with giving the military or the CIA carte blanche to do whatever they feel they should do.......

somebody has to do the dirty work so all you wusses can go drink your lattes without worrying about a building over your head having a jet flown into it