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Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert promised a "sharp Israeli response" after Palestinian militants fired four rockets into southern Israel today. The attacks were another breach in a tentative cease-fire that Israel and Hamas militants each declared unilaterally after a three-week Israeli military operation in Gaza.
Hamas fires four more rockets during "cease-fire." This is the bad thing Hamas does that some of us believe should not be tolerated. Israel has announced that if attacks continue, the response would be disproportionate. This is the bad thing that Israel does that some of us believe should not be tolerated.
And I will simply light the proverbial fuse and, for the time being, retreat. I simply think it is worthwhile that we track events as they happen rather than make them up for the convenience of our arguments, the preferences of some "new historians" aside (i.e., "Jenin may never have happened but could have," etc.)
We know that the intolerable behavior of both parties (yes I said both parties) will continue. We know that at least one side's behavior is not dictated by necessity. We suppose that the other side's choices are morally wrong (Israel's), in terms of proportionality -- and I am not hardened to this argument, personally.
Again I ask, without allowing the debate from first causes (i.e., Israel should not exist, etc.): what is the way forward, given an Israel that must continue to exist, and given a Palestinian population that must live in dignity in a state of their own?
PFnV
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Harry, just as it is inaccurate to say that Christianity murdered abortion doctors, because a few Christian terrorists took the law into their own hands, it is inaccurate to say that Islam ("their religion") attacked America. This is an extremely important point, no matter how often you make this attack on Islam as a religion.
Maverick, it is telling but not surprising that you have nothing to say about Hamas actions.
I see in neither response a discussion of a way forward.
Hamas fires four more rockets during "cease-fire." This is the bad thing Hamas does that some of us believe should not be tolerated. Israel has announced that if attacks continue, the response would be disproportionate. This is the bad thing that Israel does that some of us believe should not be tolerated.
And I will simply light the proverbial fuse and, for the time being, retreat. I simply think it is worthwhile that we track events as they happen rather than make them up for the convenience of our arguments, the preferences of some "new historians" aside (i.e., "Jenin may never have happened but could have," etc.)
We know that the intolerable behavior of both parties (yes I said both parties) will continue. We know that at least one side's behavior is not dictated by necessity. We suppose that the other side's choices are morally wrong (Israel's), in terms of proportionality -- and I am not hardened to this argument, personally.
Again I ask, without allowing the debate from first causes (i.e., Israel should not exist, etc.): what is the way forward, given an Israel that must continue to exist, and given a Palestinian population that must live in dignity in a state of their own?
PFnV
What is wrong with these people? ARe they just that fukkcing stupid or what? I guess that's the answer, they have proven time & time again and are telling the world,
"Hey everyone! Look at how stupid we are!"
And the world shakes their head in amazement.
Oh....but wait. It can't be that simple. You have to understand it from an ethnocentric perspective to know the REAL story....what a crock!
Harry, just as it is inaccurate to say that Christianity murdered abortion doctors, because a few Christian terrorists took the law into their own hands, it is inaccurate to say that Islam ("their religion") attacked America. This is an extremely important point, no matter how often you make this attack on Islam as a religion.
Maverick, it is telling but not surprising that you have nothing to say about Hamas actions.
I see in neither response a discussion of a way forward.
PFnV
Mav is one of those who believe that if Hamas fires 10 rockets into Israel but they miss their target and kill no one, that Israel's response should include not killing any Palestinians.
Then if Hamas fires another rocket and kills 10 Israili's, that Israel's response should only kill about 10 Palestinians. He doesn't realize that that if Hamas fires 10 rockets that kill no one and Israel responds with a single rocket that kills 500 Palestinians in response that it would be a fair response.
That's the way war is and always will be. "All is fair in love & war" and if you are going to initiate a war, then expect a devastating response. Hamas is only getting what they deserve for their actions.
Nations (and even factions) are enjoined by all international instruments not to target civilians purposefully, and not to wage aggressive war.
And nations are also enjoined to limit their responses in regard to proportion, even in cases where they are clearly in the right as regards casus belli.
Why, indeed, does Hamas continue these attacks? I have no answer other than Hamas' stated answer, that there can never, ever be peace with Israel.
Why does Israel announce prior to acting, that the response will be disproportionate? Perhaps to display to the people both of the region and of the world, that these actions have very painful consequences -- in doing so, they declare that their ends justify their means, irrespective of the dim light in which we hold disproportionate actions (of other countries.)
I think people here know my sympathies, so I am trying not to indulge them. In the case of either of the sides, however, it is an interesting perspective to apply the famous aphorism "ought implies can."
Can a Palestinian movement remain relevant without indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets?
Can Israel, as a sovereign state, allow such attacks without taking all measures available to stem them?
Our responses here indicate a very weak regard for the peoples of Israel and Palestine. Are both peoples trapped in a cycle, forever?
I've indicated here during the heat of these attacks that it has become quite difficult to maintain hope for a state other than continuous warfare. I do not desire such a state, so I am asking for any ideas that include hope.
We're all about to be subjected to the next phase of this bloody quid pro quo -- the Palestinian people in particular.
Nations (and even factions) are enjoined by all international instruments not to target civilians purposefully, and not to wage aggressive war.
And nations are also enjoined to limit their responses in regard to proportion, even in cases where they are clearly in the right as regards casus belli.
Why, indeed, does Hamas continue these attacks? I have no answer other than Hamas' stated answer, that there can never, ever be peace with Israel.
Why does Israel announce prior to acting, that the response will be disproportionate? Perhaps to display to the people both of the region and of the world, that these actions have very painful consequences -- in doing so, they declare that their ends justify their means, irrespective of the dim light in which we hold disproportionate actions (of other countries.)
I think people here know my sympathies, so I am trying not to indulge them. In the case of either of the sides, however, it is an interesting perspective to apply the famous aphorism "ought implies can."
Can a Palestinian movement remain relevant without indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets?
Can Israel, as a sovereign state, allow such attacks without taking all measures available to stem them?
Our responses here indicate a very weak regard for the peoples of Israel and Palestine. Are both peoples trapped in a cycle, forever?
I've indicated here during the heat of these attacks that it has become quite difficult to maintain hope for a state other than continuous warfare. I do not desire such a state, so I am asking for any ideas that include hope.
We're all about to be subjected to the next phase of this bloody quid pro quo -- the Palestinian people in particular.
Is there a way for the next round not to happen?
PFnV
I have watched it, seen it and read about it all my life. I have no answers or proposals that have not been thought of before. I only know that the answer or answers lie in the hearts of the people who live there.
It is sickening & disheartening, I have no other words to describe my feelings about this war in the middle east. If it's not the Palestinians, its another Arab nation & Israel. Why is there so much hatred in the hearts of the Arab people toward one tiny nation? I don't begin to know that answer to that question.
Last edited by PatriotsReign; 02-01-2009 at 01:38 PM..
Can a Palestinian movement remain relevant without indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets?
Can Israel, as a sovereign state, allow such attacks without taking all measures available to stem them?
Our responses here indicate a very weak regard for the peoples of Israel and Palestine. Are both peoples trapped in a cycle, forever?
PFnV, do you honestly believe Israel would ever allow the Palestinians control over their own borders, instead of the current situation spanning several decades where Israel decides how much food/water goes in and how much they want to STARVE an innocent group of people? If not, then the entire world is going down in flames once Israel pre-preemptively strikes its next paranoid-created target.
There will always be people pissed if another nation is basically starving them to death. You have people pissed enough that they are willing to use desperate guerrilla tactics such as blow themselves up. This is not indicative of completely insane people no matter how much our media tells us; it is indicative of a very pissed off, desperate enemy going against a superior opponent.
As for Hamas, what they do to Palestinians or Israelis does not have any defense. BUT... why do you think they formed 20 years ago? Do you think they came out of thin air or were in reaction to something legitimate?
Hamas provokes, Israel promises retaliation
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