Lifer

Rhein's Deli!!! Thats the name of that great Deli in Vernon,Connecticut.

It was driving me crazy! GREAT chopped liver.

Wildo7

Now Israel has used the incident to roll tanks back into Gaza, but I'm sure Palestinians are the aggressor here

KontradictioN

Seeing as the Palestinians are the ones that broke the cease-fire, yes they are. Unless you have FULLPROOF evidence that Israel provoked them backed by pictures, audio, or video, Palestine has become the aggressor in this situation. Back with the tanks and the murdered civilians. We all knew Israel didn't care about civilian lives. What we didn't know, until today, is that Hamas doesn't care either.

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CREDIT - Sicilian

PatsFanInVa

I thought you were just vehemently arguing that no cease-fire existed.

Again, Wildo, put down the partisan classes, and look at the first sentence in the story. There is no specification of the order of events. There is not way to determine who has broken the cease-fire from the story's lead. You have to dig well down after the lead.

I understood your sympathies the first time through (which was quite some time ago.) The remainder of your last post simply has nothing to do with the truth, and everything to do with how you believe we should all believe the truth is unfolding.

You make the point, and have made the point before, that the Israeli armed forces are losing very few combatants in this conflict.

That is because they are much better armed. Being the winner is not morally reprehensible, Wildo. One's reason for going to war, and ones conduct when in war, are those acts that we can judge. By those standards, there is no question that Israel's actions are simply responses to acts of war.

Since Hamas is so terribly outgunned, it would probably behoove that faction to embrace a peace process, but no such outcome seems more attractive to Hamas based on its technological inferiority.

Your most recent post makes me laugh... you have just argued how horrible it is to say that Israel has called a cease-fire, once Hamas breaks it -- and even how horrible it is to accurately report that Hamas has broken said cease-fire. You evidently believe that the words "cease fire" are not applicable to Israel. You want the word to be "withdrawl." And when Israel says it has "withdrawn," you want the word to be something else.

God forbid that the world is exactly what it is: The Israelis withdrew after an occupation, and Hamas continued their provocations until the Israelis invaded again. Israel did so, then withdrew again, and then Hamas immediately resumed provocations.

The Israelis suffer very little more by engaging Hamas than by ignoring these provocations. Hamas suffers when Israel engages Hamas, and ordinary Palestinians suffer when Israel engages Hamas. What is the argument here, Wildo: "STOP, or we'll shoot ourselves"? "STOP, or we'll make you shoot us"? Exactly how does re-initiating hostilities indemnify Hamas from the charge that they have re-initiated hostilities with Israel?

Hey, that was dumb!

By the way, your notion that Israel has invaded "another country" is at present untrue. It is Israeli policy at this point that one might one day be able to make such a claim, as regards the West Bank and Gaza.

It is Hamas' policy that no such claim can be made, since Hamas does not recognize the coexistence of a Palestinian state and an Israeli state.

This is simple, Wildo. You've picked a side to root for, based on the fact that they're the underdog. You don't care that this underdog kills more of their own people than Israel, nor the fact that this underdog is brutally repressive in their theocratic notions of government. And no, Israel is not a theocracy; you have to look at the Saudis or Iranians for that -- or to Gaza.

PFnV

Wildo7

Picking out the pieces of your post that are just a straw man (pretty much everything you wrote): I haven't picked a side to root for, I root for a two state solution. As of right now, I believe Israel and it's actions have been the biggest obstacle to that. I don't see any value in military prowess or "victory" in terms of the winner being more moral simply because they won, or have more money and are being armed by the most powerful country in the world. And I don't recall referring to Gaza as a "country." I also don't have a problem with Israel calling a cease-fire, I have a problem with Hamas being expected to abide by it after 1,300 people, mostly citizens just died.

This is the fundamental problem with your argument; Hamas and Palestine and other militia groups aren't a homeogenous entity. When you kill 600 innocent civilians you better expect that some family member or group of people is going to retaliate to that. What people call "Hamas" is a loosely organized group of Palestinians that pick up guns or bombs and fight. The idea that Israel responds because of an isolated attack like that, and we have no idea who was responsible, by indiscriminate bombing is only an assurance that the cycle of grief and retaliation is never going to end.

I know that if my relative was a "collateral damage" I wouldn't personally hesitate, regardless of any cease fires that have been "issued" or "agreed upon", to pick up a gun or a bomb and fight back. Israel understands this, and they simply don't care. So let me ask you this; how exactly is Hamas, a government decimated by the attacks, supposed to enforce a cease fire when Israel has just blown 1,300 Palestinians to pieces? But that's ok, another all out "response" should do the trick. Israel has the power, they set the rules knowing that Hamas cannot possibly live up to them and then use that as justification to maintain and expand settlements, and keep Gaza as a prison.

IcyPatriot

Today Hamas ... tomorrow, next year or whenever in the future there will always be an antagonist of Israel in Gaza as long as the Palestinians allow it. If there was no Gaza ... if it was part of Israel then it would be all West Bank or part of the west bank because Iran will make sure of it. Abbas is a schill for Israel ... does he really represent his people's best interests?

When and if the Paestinian people wise up to this perhaps then will they truly gain some power. They need top stand up for themselves and not let a terrorist organization use them as pawns. Iran / Hamas / Syria could care less for their fellow Muslim/Arab brothers and sisters ... those poor people are pawns.


Israel is by far not absolved of all of this ... but they don't help either. Arabs in Israel are treated as 2nd class citizens ... so why and/or where is the incentive for the Paestinians to rise up and take control? When equality becomes a part of Israel then and only then IMO will the Palestinians take the proper course of political representation ... rubber stamps like Abbas are not good enough.

PatriotsReign

I've said it before and most don't agree with me, but you can NOT have countries exist based solely upon and defined by their religion. Not only is it a house of cards, it is simply a foolish framework for any society.

Whether it's Israel and their "you have to be jewish to be a citizen of Israel" or the many Arab states defined by the law of Islam. They are all outdated and ridiculous.

It is for sure the cause of all the violence. Money & power are not at the root of the problems. Religion is and has been the cause for centuries.

Turk

Please exercise patience and watch each one, in its entirety:

Here are a few young men of conscience, who must be Jew haters, but wait they are Jewish, and Israeli soldiers, at that:

YouTube - Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out

YouTube - Israeli Soldiers Refuse To Serve In Palestine: Part 1


Here are a few men of distinction and achievement, that bravely speak out against the Israeli aggression;
but of course they hate Jews and not Israel’s actions, according to some on this board, but wait, they are all Jewish:

Norman Finkelstein
Noam Chomsky
Israel Shahak
British MP Gerald Kaufman
Uri Avnery
Ilan Pappe
Norton Mezvinsky
John Mearsheimer


And as far as the using of kids as human shields, but wait, it's only Hamas that does that, according to some on this board:

YouTube - Israeli Army Uses Palestinian Children as Human Shield 1

YouTube - U.N. Official: Exposes the Israeli "human shield" lie



Here are a few brave souls speaking the facts:

YouTube - Brian Eno 1/3/09 Truth About Israel

YouTube - George Galloway 1/3/09 Truth About Israel

YouTube - John Rees 1/3/09 Truth About Israel

Wildo7

Religion is the tool leaders use to exacerbate violence. It's the gasoline poured all over every country, being set alight more and more the worse the conditions are. It's a dynamic, amorphous entity that redefines and reconfigures itself according to the circumstances it inhabits. Ever notice that places like E. Timor, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland and Palestine all have the most psychotic religious problems and all find themselves in similar situations? It's not about the religion, it's about the conflict and the circumstances, religion is just the last resort, the thing that will make people die for you.

Any population that's poor, desperate, uneducated and marginalized will always have the highest degree of religious violence and fanaticism. Switch Israelis with Palestinians and you'd see Jews blowing themselves up in the name of Yahweh, picking and choosing whatever elements of the Talmud that they can use to justify it. People forget (or never learn) that before the crusades the middle east was the most advanced society in the world, with barely any animosity towards Jews or Christians.

Religion turns people into robots, and we'd all be better off if there was none. As long as there are people willing to do as their told and believe without evidence, it's certainly the number one weapon of choice for weaponless countries. But it's not the root cause. I can only imagine what the United States would be like if it suddenly found itself in similar conditions, is there anything in southern evangelicals that tells you they'd be more reasonable than muslims under similar circumstances? The "Islam is a violent religion, Christianity is peaceful" arguments would fly out the window and they'd be picking and choosing the most violent passages out of the bible, just like muslims have done with the Quran.

Wildo7

Prepare for a deluge of Dershowitz.