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The American mainstream media can only be considered "anti-Israeli" by completely fascist crazy extremist Zionists.
Everytime Israel does anything questionable, the entire American article is basically a defense or justification for why it's seemingly okay for them to do it.
I bet if someone were to create a series of completely one-sided Youtube videos about the "real side" of Zionists, as the above videos claim to be of Palestinians, they would be flagged and removed.
Hamas was created only 20 years ago, and Israel helped create Hamas the same way Arab blowback applies to the US. But... it's much simpler I guess to just say Muslims/Arabs hate America because "they hate our freedom", and also to call Hamas flat out crazy and came out of thin air for no reason, when it comes to Israel...
Last edited by maverick4; 01-23-2009 at 10:47 PM..
So I take it that all the evil done by Hamas is Israel's fault in the first place.
Very insightful, except for the 100% certainty that you're full of crap again.
If you haven't noticed, the mainstream media have been chock full of propaganda pieces on the suffering Gazan populace -- but have ignored the fact that Hamas specifically places them in harm's way. By the way there are others, including Hamas men machine-gunning a group of some dozens of Palestinian men who are lying face-down on the ground, and quite alive at the beginning of the footage. I wonder, with the death count of about 1,000 from the recent Israeli actions, exactly who directly caused the most Palestinian deaths, between Hamas and Israel.
But let's find common ground, shall we, Maverick?
While the Israeli "creation" of Hamas is a debateable proposition at best (did Israel "create" the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is the Palestinian branch -- before Israel itself was created?) we can certainly agree, then, that this evil "creation of Israel" cannot continue in its present form.
Do you favor the defeat of Hamas, or the achievement of Hamas' goals?
Or do you favor some sort of accomodation with Hamas?
Exactly what place do you believe Hamas should have in the Middle East, going forward? What place do you believe Hamas has vis a vis Fatah? We have another "cease-fire", at the moment.
So let's not let the topic drop until the next time it involves Israel. In the last few days Hamas has been rounding up and shooting at close range (without trial, of course,) those Gazans who are suspected of "spying" for Israel, or of sympathizing with Fatah. This is nothing new, if you were paying attention when Hamas had their coup.
Now, the Israelis are (again,) gone. Now, Hamas is running around unchecked in Gaza, jumping out of the truck, dragging guys against walls, and shooting them (or in more generous moods, shooting out their knees or hands.)
Where is the press coverage? Where is your outrage, or is it that selective?
Okay, Strudel, the DET cord snaking from a zoo through a school dated January 2009 is evidently not sufficient. Oh wait, it's now not so important that rockets are fired from schools, but from U.N. schools. Well-played!
I don't know if you understand the prevalence of UN structures in Gaza. Gazans are dependent on UNRWA for their survival, and that applies to schools as well. I think that ignoring this fact is a great part of the general media spin against Israel -- if you never stipulate the extensiveness of UNRWA throughout Gaza, you don't understand that any such school is likely to be a UN school. The difficulty, of course, is that nobody wants to see a school attacked at all... but the fact is that attacks are being launched FROM these schools.
The point of posting proof of that fact, is that if the schools are being used as active theaters of war, it's a bit hypocritical to run in, get a rocket or mortar shell, fire it off, and then say "NO FAIR!!! ON BASE!!!" when the IAF counters.
I'm not certain how possible it is to find a UN flag flying, within a 3-week period, adjacent to a rocket-launching or a weapons cache... But here's a rocket launcher situated between two schools, during the current "cease-fire"...
So, we have a launcher between 2 schools, during the current "cease fire."
We have rockets being launched from a school, albeit in October 07... which for some reason invalidates the notion that the tactic would be in continual use.
We have a school/zoo booby-trapped when found by ground forces.
We have weapons caches in mosques.
We have footage of Hamas attacking and slaughtering other Palestinians.
Yet you believe that the salient piece of information is that you have not been shown to your satisfaction that a particular school is a UN school -- despite the fact that UNRWA is the major builder of schools (and all edifices) in the Gaza strip, and despite the fact that Hamas has been shown conclusively to use mosques, schools, and other such typically "off-limits" public edifices as part of the machinery of war.
The Arab population of Gaza is 1.37 million. Of this, 961,000 are registered with UNRWA as refugees. That's a full 70% of the population. There are actually eight UNRWA refugee camps in the Gaza Strip: Jabalia, Rafah, Beach, Nuseirat, Khan Yunis, Bureij, Maghazi and Deir El-Balah.
Now, when you hear "refugee camp," you may picture a tent city, or some sort of barracks arrangement... the truth is that "refugee camp" is more like a UN version of "projects" in the U.S. These are primarily apartment blocks, general residential areas. They were in large part the focus of Operation Cast Lead, specifically because they were the centers of Hamas activity. Do any of the above-named camps sound famililar? Jabalia perhaps? Rafah? Khan Yunis?
The entirety of each of these areas -- where the majority of Gazans live -- is an UNRWA undertaking.
None of this is meant to exonnerate Israel. Of course, if you know me, you know that I believe Israel's in the right in the recent conflict, in terms of casus belli. I also believe that having the right to do something does not make it the wisest course of action.
Regardless, the point here is to clarify what is missing from the anti-Israeli media bias. If it bleeds it leads, and Hamas makes certain it will bleed -- with the "it" being the general populace of Gaza.
I look forward to steps forward in the future, given a sober-minded and pragmatic Obama administration, an Israeli government that has always been prepared to talk peace (yes, even the hardliners; Even Begin, the hardliner's hardliner, was glad to give land for peace,) and a Fatah that has come a very long way from its original claim that all of Israel is Palestinian land.
Of the forces in the two "countries", only Hamas still talks and acts in terms of wiping out the other side. Only Hamas openly declares the martyrdom of its own members and the population it's elected to "protect" to be means of warfare.
And presented with stark evidence that Hamas does precisely what they say they will do, what does the Western sympathizer do?
He runs in search of an explanation of how Israel is to blame for Hamas' existence.
Hamas is there. Does Israel negotiate with Hamas? How? Does Fatah become the representative of Palestinians again? How? We have the fact of the 2005 election to contend with, yet we know that the winner of that election has decided to exterminate the loser... does this square with democracy? What is the answer to the formula of one man, one vote, one time?
I am not saying these are easy questions. I am saying these are the real questions before us.
Yet I see precious little interest in answering these questions. I see plenty of essays on the evil of Israel's existence, the evil of Israel's self-defense, and skepticism that an organization which advertises its disregard of combatant status -- Hamas -- would actually disregard combatant status.
Do you believe that, Strudel? Really?
If so, you must see Hamas as a possible partner in peace. Is that the case? If so, how will it happen?
Israel vastly overpowers Hamas militarily. The casualties were ~700 to 10. If weapons are indeed intermingled with the civilian population then you can suss that out covertly without killing innocents. When Israel/Hamas shell civilians then there is absolutely no ethical justification. The goal here was probably terrorize the population for electing Hamas. Nice.
Let me be clear, nothing justifies shelling civilians. Nothing.
Hmmm... agree or disagree with PFIV, he's usually one of the most level-headed commentators on this board... until it comes to this topic, and all of a sudden we start seeing him use words like "cowards" and "crap", and becoming inobjective (unobjective?) in stating his arguments. Totally unlike him.
IMHO, Isreal has been nothing but one big pain in the arse. The US seeks an allay in the Middle East, and Isreal just takes total advantage of it. They certainly have the right to protect themselves, but they always push it way farther than that. Isreal's behaviour is comparable to the US torture that's been going on in Gitmo. And yes, there is blood on HAMAS' hands for which they must be accountable, nonetheless it's clearly evident to me that their creation was due solely to Isreali aggression.
And to push this logic further, the real numbnuts in all of this were those post war folks who decided to allow Isreal to exist in the middle of the Middle East to start with.