Constructive defensive thread

[coolguy]

Originally Posted by PATRIOTSFANINPA

'Realistically' the team went to the Super Bowl because 'realistically' everything fell into place for them to get there

1) Denver beat Pittsburgh whereas it would have been much more difficult to beat Big Ben had they had to play them,Ben has beaten this poor secondary more than once in the past years.

2) The Texans lost their QB and were still in the playoffs with a raw rookie TJ Yates,I am certain the Texans would have been a load had they had their most important player behind center.

Not to mention brady didn't play a good game.......Joe flacco didn't figure out how bad the defense was until the 4th quarter.

[manxman2601]

Originally Posted by RayClay

Seems to be the thing lately, so some random thoughts about the defense.

It's not awful. With Brady and Co. marching down the field a lot in the no huddle the defense is 13th out of 32 in scoring. That's mediocre. The number of yards don't matter at all, especially with our superior scoring, unless you are playing your own version where you get points for the most yards without scoring.

[The Red Sox used to play a version of this; most men on base without scoring runs, but only in my own frustrated mind.]

Spikes is screwy, Nincovich stinks, Cunningham is a bust. Guess they're looking a bit better with time. That's really the rule, not the exception. Defenses are about learning and chemistry. We looked at a ton of low round and FA DLs and got one keeper. That's patience. Maybe Brace is a bust, but nobody's giving away 300++ pound linemen who can play. Maybe it's injuries, but if not you can more easily cut him than find a replacement.

I think our front seven needs depth, which is better than needing talent, which i think we have. Our secondary just can't put together a group of healthy well functioning players at the same time. I wonder if Chung's got a chronic shoulder issue. If not, we've got the talent we've got, which isn't bad if Talib is a positive.

By not bad, I don't mean their function right now, they aren't good. I think the size of our linebackers means we'd rather pull them more, or help them in passing situations, but our safeties are different each week. Looking glass half full (Chung and Gregory being healthy) we have a good three safety rotation with some talent at CB and Moore on the PS if needed.

Before you jump all over me, that's the best we can expect, we already paid for a troubled vet, I doubt there are more moves. Barring health, we'll have to patch. we've won a SB with a patched backfield.

I don't see how coaching has much to do with it, how do you coach guys who aren't healthy at the same time, or playing out of position? I do think they might simplify the "game plan" defensive approach to give these guys some continuity since we'll be lucky to have our prospective starting lineup playing more than a few games together.

Well my first point would be, Why are they playing out of position? If that's not coaching, nothing is. And the other point as to why coaching is a problem is that the secondary hasn't improved for at least a couple of years, if anything, it's regressed. The ultimate responsibility for that is the coaches and particularly BB. Having said that, I'm actually hopeful moving forwards. I really like McCourty at safety and think he could be a league leading safety providing the Pats commit to him at the position. I like Dennard and think he can be league average at worst, if they re-sign Talib, then we could be looking at an effective tandem and I still hope that Dowling can get an extended run of fitness because I think his upside is really good. That leaves us only in desperate need of another safety as I'm yet to be convinced that Tavon Wilson is the guy.

[roguepatriot]

Originally Posted by RayClay

Seems to be the thing lately, so some random thoughts about the defense.



By not bad, I don't mean their function right now, they aren't good. I think the size of our linebackers means we'd rather pull them more, or help them in passing situations, but our safeties are different each week. Looking glass half full (Chung and Gregory being healthy) we have a good three safety rotation with some talent at CB and Moore on the PS if needed.

Before you jump all over me, that's the best we can expect, we already paid for a troubled vet, I doubt there are more moves. Barring health, we'll have to patch. we've won a SB with a patched backfield.

I don't see how coaching has much to do with it, how do you coach guys who aren't healthy at the same time, or playing out of position? I do think they might simplify the "game plan" defensive approach to give these guys some continuity since we'll be lucky to have our prospective starting lineup playing more than a few games together.

This defence is (still) in rebuilding mode and I believe with the new NFL, BB will never make it the focus as far as FA spending goes.BB has got the message that offenses (QBs) now win games, so the defense will have to build from draft picks/FA rejects from other teams. Not all draft picks, due to talent/injuries work out. WIth a young group, the defensive approach tends to be more simple at the beginning of the season, which becomes much easier for opposing QBs to pick apart. Rebuilding often means less depth, so injuries hit harder. It is also only two years since the team focused more on a 4-3 alignment, which then takes the right talent to populate.

IF you look at this as a rebuilding year, the defense is not going to be good. Usually if five rookies are on the field, with 5 more 2/3rd year players, which I have seen this year, there are going to be mistakes. I have not been over-impressed by the coaching in some games, , but if you are already giving away a ton of long passing plays, blitzing may just lead to more of them.

As I see this a) this team will make the post season (again); b) a young/rebuilding defense will get better as the year goes on and into the postseason; c) if they can all get/stay healthy, with Taliq, they could improve to an average run stuffing turnover causing D, which has happened in past seasons. Otherwise, I see 2 years from now these guys will be a lot better, as this years rookie crop improve and the drafting emphasis goes back to DBs. With what we are used to the last ten years, maybe it is tough to be that patient, especially after the last Buffalo game. If I look back to the years I lived in hope supporting the 'Patsies', maybe its not too bad. Also, I do not think there is any truly dominant team in the NFL right now, so even with this defense, I believe that all it needs is for TB and the running game to go into overdrive for 3/4 games in the post season for them to still end up with a ring.

[Sciz]

Originally Posted by coolguy

Joe flacco didn't figure out how bad the defense was until the 4th quarter.

How far are you willing to spin things in order to avoid giving the defense any credit at all?

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Originally Posted by coolguy

Not to mention brady didn't play a good game.......Joe flacco didn't figure out how bad the defense was until the 4th quarter.

Not to mention that Schaub and Big Ben are far better and more consistent than Flacco.

Schaub may be one of the most dangerous QBs the team will face all year,at times he plays as good as anyone in the league,I am worried about that game.

[coolguy]

Originally Posted by Sciz

How far are you willing to spin things in order to avoid giving the defense any credit at all?

The ravens scored a touchdown and missed a chip shot field after flacco led his team down the field.

[coolguy]

Originally Posted by PATRIOTSFANINPA

Not to mention that Schaub and Big Ben are far better and more consistent than Flacco.

Schaub may be one of the most dangerous QBs the team will face all year,at times he plays as good as anyone in the league,I am worried about that game.

Schaub is not a better than flacco and is unproven.

Eli, rivers, and flacco are essentially the same quarterback.

[Sciz]

Originally Posted by coolguy

The ravens scored a touchdown and missed a chip shot field after flacco led his team down the field.

We're talking about the fourth quarter here. There were no Ravens points in the fourth quarter. The Ravens had three drives in the fourth quarter. One was an interception where Spikes undercut a route. The second was a failed fourth down conversion that was very much forced by the Pats, particularly Wilfork. The third was that missed FG. The only thing the Ravens accomplished in that entire quarter was getting into FG position. It doesn't seem to me like Flacco was playing a defense that sucked.

[RayClay]

Originally Posted by manxman2601

Well my first point would be, Why are they playing out of position? If that's not coaching, nothing is.

Because the two starting safeties were injured.

And the other point as to why coaching is a problem is that the secondary hasn't improved for at least a couple of years, if anything, it's regressed.

They have different players. Meriweather was talented, but turned out to be an idiot. Bodden was injured. Are you saying they should have kept and coached up that mess we had the end of last year?

I really like McCourty at safety and think he could be a league leading safety providing the Pats commit to him at the position. I like Dennard and think he can be league average at worst, if they re-sign Talib, then we could be looking at an effective tandem and I still hope that Dowling can get an extended run of fitness because I think his upside is really good. That leaves us only in desperate need of another safety as I'm yet to be convinced that Tavon Wilson is the guy.

Yes, we have more talent, I agree, but you can't coach players in the whirlpool.

I will agree that they might simplify their "game plan" defenses to allow more continuity and depend on athletic ability, but in general, I don't see how you can coach players who won't do their job, or ones that are continually injured.

[coolguy]

Originally Posted by Sciz

We're talking about the fourth quarter here. There were no Ravens points in the fourth quarter. The Ravens had three drives in the fourth quarter. One was an interception where Spikes undercut a route. The second was a failed fourth down conversion that was very much forced by the Pats, particularly Wilfork. The third was that missed FG. The only thing the Ravens accomplished in that entire quarter was getting into FG position. It doesn't seem to me like Flacco was playing a defense that sucked.

You got me there.. That was one of the oddest games I've ever seen, one can make the case the defense maybe plays better when they know brady won't bail them out.