The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread

[Boomer B]

Originally Posted by rojo8401

Ellis Hobbs, Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Terrence Wheatley all went on to play for other teams with mostly good results.

The Pats can't draft receivers but they do ok with their DBs. The regression appears to be a scheme/coaching issue to me. I could be wrong but the evidence points this way.

NITPICKER NOTES: 1. Hobbs retired due to injury 2. Butler is playing for the Colts as their nickel (albeit due to injuries) 3. Wheatley is a bum (although still employed in the NFL).

Really? They went on to play with mostly good results? Is that in some bizarro football universe?

Asante Samuel had good results, but you can't say that about the rest.

[JMarr]

Originally Posted by rojo8401

Chris Canty was the only high draft pick at the position (that I can recall) that was a bust and that was a Petey Pick. Unless you count Wheatley and Wilhite but they both went on to play for other teams.

Chung is waaay too early to call but I think he's far from a bust right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong here...

I do include Wheatley and Wilhite. and Darius Butler.

And Chung could turn it around, but he's had three years and he's headed in the wrong direction imo. He's basically doing nothing well at this point.

[Deus Irae]

Originally Posted by aluminum seats

Again.....

Lay out an actual, well-reasoned case why the ongoing suckiness of the secondary is not a result of the coaching. Include in your presentation specific details as to why several Pats' players in the secondary (such as, but not limited to, Eugene Wilson, Devin McCourty) began their Patriots careers with noticeable success before regressing. Also, detail what actions and/or characteristics of the current secondary coach are helping the Patriots be a better team.

Until you do that, I'm afraid we'll have to assume that you're just--what was that phrase again?--talking out of your ass.

Again, I asked for your case. You're trying to switch it around. I understand, though, since you don't actually have a case.

As for Eugene Wilson, the man broke body parts in 2 straight Super Bowls and wasn't the same afterwards. However, in case you didn't realize this, and this is important, so I'll put it in caps just for you......

BOYER WASN'T THE DB COACH FOR WILSON. This helps my point, and undercuts yours.

[Deus Irae]

Originally Posted by rojo8401

Ellis Hobbs, Asante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Randall Gay, Darius Butler, Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, Terrence Wheatley all went on to play for other teams with mostly good results.

The Pats can't draft receivers but they do ok with their DBs. The regression appears to be a scheme/coaching issue to me. I could be wrong but the evidence points this way.

NITPICKER NOTES: 1. Hobbs retired due to injury 2. Butler is playing for the Colts as their nickel (albeit due to injuries) 3. Wheatley is a bum (although still employed in the NFL).

As you noted, Hobbs retired due to injury
Wilson was never the same after that second Super Bowl injury
Meriweather was benched in Chicago
Gay had lost his starting job, and had to retire due to concussions
Butler is only playing due to injury
Wheatley only played in one game after leaving the Patriots, and is out of football
Sanders is a backup/depth guy in Arizona

So, the only player who's gone on to have good results post-NE, be it because of injury or other issue, is Samuel.

I didn't like the way the got rid of Meriweather and Sanders last year, and I stand by that, but it's not as if either of them has lit the world on fire.

[Cassanova792]

Originally Posted by ATippett56

Unfortunately, you failed to mention the New England Patriots starting safeties during the 2003-2004 NFL Seasons were Rodney Harrison and Eugene Wilson.

Albeit the current roster does not have a Rodney Harrison, i refuse to believe a secondary can be this bad because we don't have a star player a la a Rodney Harrison. It should be not as good, yes, but to be the laughing stock of the NFL without a Rodney lead Secondary, i wouldnt go that far.

Also our front 7 is very formidable in comparison to the 2003-2004 teams front 7.

[VJCPatriot]

Our secondary sucks. Yes it does. But what can the Pats do to fix that? We are going to have to make corrections with the personnel we currently have because I don't see any team in the NFL willing to help improve our defense for draft picks.

[Cassanova792]

Originally Posted by VJCPatriot

Our secondary sucks. Yes it does. But what can the Pats do to fix that? We are going to have to make corrections with the personnel we currently have because I don't see any team in the NFL willing to help improve our defense for draft picks.

That's why the most logical and most immediate decision is to replace the coaching. It starts with the DC in Patricia. Downgrade him back to LB coach and get rid of Boyers. With these guys leading our defensive braintrust, we have been consistently one of the worst defensive teams year in and year out.

Yes we might be missing a few talented players in the secondary, but a good DC coordinator can cover it up wayyyyyyyy better than Patricia and his vanilla defense. It's kind of unfair that I am using Boyers as a scapegoat because honestly i have no idea what he is teaching the secondary back there, but it is obviously has not been working and it wouldn't hurt to infuse some new blood to shake up the defensive philosophy.

BB needs to stop promoting from within and hire more capable well established coaches to his arsenal, especially on defense. Which for whatever reason, he has been very reluctant about since he has been here. Maybe due to Ego??? We could get results within a few weeks versus waiting another season to hopefully get a stud CB.

[Boomer B]

Originally Posted by Cassanova792

Albeit the current roster does not have a Rodney Harrison, i refuse to believe a secondary can be this bad because we don't have a star player a la a Rodney Harrison. It should be not as good, yes, but to be the laughing stock of the NFL without a Rodney lead Secondary, i wouldnt go that far.

Also our front 7 is very formidable in comparison to the 2003-2004 teams front 7.

It's the laughing stock of the NFL for a few different reasons

1) Talent - The guys that we start in the secondary are not starters on most other teams, and that's just not 1 or 2 of them, that is the whole secondary.

Chung - Horrible in coverage. Below average
Gregory - Career backup until he got here. Below average
Arrington - Way below average
McCourty - Average to below average. Not consistent.
Dowling, Wilson, Dennard - not seen enough to say above or below yet.

2) Coaching - These guys are the worst in the league at playing the ball. Either we don't know how to draft corners or we don't know how to coach them. The vanilla scheme with no blitzes isn't doing the corners any favors either.

I also don't think we can say (yet) that the front seven is the equal of those championship front sevens. They had some all time great Patriots who were great in crunch time. Guys like McGinest, Vrabel, Bruschi, & Seymour made big plays at key times. The group we have now have not done that in crunch time.

[Urgent]

Originally Posted by Deus Irae

As you noted, Hobbs retired due to injury
Wilson was never the same after that second Super Bowl injury
Meriweather was benched in Chicago
Gay had lost his starting job, and had to retire due to concussions
Butler is only playing due to injury
Wheatley only played in one game after leaving the Patriots, and is out of football
Sanders is a backup/depth guy in Arizona

So, the only player who's gone on to have good results post-NE, be it because of injury or other issue, is Samuel.

I didn't like the way the got rid of Meriweather and Sanders last year, and I stand by that, but it's not as if either of them has lit the world on fire.

This is an interesting argument. Does the absence of players who performed well outside NE mean that the issue is player selection, not player coaching?

However, when you broaden the range beyond DB, there are few other cases you can compare. Samuel is about the only player, at DB or anywhere else, who has really performed well outside NE.

Cassell, Kevin McConnell, Hoyer can't find a home, Matt Guttierez, all the way back to Rohan Davey. Young QB's, trained under Brady and Pats offensive system. Cassell had a good year or two in KC, but nothing really that measured up to his one year here.

Can you think of OL that performed well elsewhere? Maroney didn't succeed outside NE. BJGE looks to have regressed. Outside Branch none of the "New England" wide receivers played well elsewhere - only the guys who spent a season here 5-6 years into their careers, but not the Taylor Price/Chad Jackson's.

So what does that really demonstrate, then, if few of the corners or safeties succeeded elsewhere?

All we know is that the team has been able to develop a QB, a number of OL, TE's, small number of receivers, good DL, some LB's, but very few DB's. With similar 'raw material' the team has succeeded at other positions, but not DB.

[parthasas]

Originally Posted by Cassanova792

That's why the most logical and most immediate decision is to replace the coaching. It starts with the DC in Patricia. Downgrade him back to LB coach and get rid of Boyers. With these guys leading our defensive braintrust, we have been consistently one of the worst defensive teams year in and year out.

Yes we might be missing a few talented players in the secondary, but a good DC coordinator can cover it up wayyyyyyyy better than Patricia and his vanilla defense. It's kind of unfair that I am using Boyers as a scapegoat because honestly i have no idea what he is teaching the secondary back there, but it is obviously has not been working and it wouldn't hurt to infuse some new blood to shake up the defensive philosophy.

BB needs to stop promoting from within and hire more capable well established coaches to his arsenal, especially on defense. Which for whatever reason, he has been very reluctant about since he has been here. Maybe due to Ego??? We could get results within a few weeks versus waiting another season to hopefully get a stud CB.

occams razor !!