My Thoughts on Asante - New England Patriots Forums

***AndyJohnson*** · 04-06-2007, 06:30 PM

-It never ceases to amaze me how overreactive this board is. I can understand REACTING to rumors and news. Comments such as "wow, if they are far apart this may turn into an issue" or "if this cant get worked out, I want them to (fill in the blank) but lets see what happens" I can understand. The comments that either overrate him or trash his ability, or make judgment that he is scum or the team is cheap, etc, etc based on A REPORT FROM ADAM SCHECTER amaze me. I've never understood why we are so quick to turn a news story about what may be going on behind the scenes into proof that a specific conclusion is guaranetted.
-There seem to be 2 camps:
Camp 1) He isnt that good. This is based on somehow implying that his int #s are a bad thing. Never understood that one. Absolutely Ints are not the sole criteria for a corner, but somehow those knocking him are arguing that it is, and strangely using that to say he isnt that good. Gives me a headache. Additionally, I have heard the 'one good year' comment consisistently. I dont get that one either. I seem to remember we won a SB with Asante playing in place of Ty Law, whom many fans (probably most of the same ones) felt we couldnt win without. I also seem to remember him being far and away the best corner on an AFCE champ that won a playoff game, and played about as well defensively as any team in the NFL in the 2nd half of 2005 when the broken pieces surrounding him got duck taped together.
Camp 2) He is great, pay him. This side also seems to imply the Patriots are being 'cheap' and not treating him well.
-My opinion is:
THINGS I BELIEVE
Asante is a very good corner
If I buy the 'one year' argument, who cares. It was his 4th season, and in his 5th, 6th...... he will be more like what he grew into by year 4 than what he was while growing into it. If you want to argue he stunk in 03-05 (nd you would be wrong) and was excellent in 06, you should argue to keep him because we are keeping him for the player he will be, not what he used to be. (This is also why the Pats do well in FA, they refuse to pay old players for what they were when they were young)
Corners ARE IMPORTANT TO OUR D. Many seem to have forgotten this. Please referesh your memories by looking back at how we played with Duane Starks, Earthwind Moreland, Terrence Shaw, and Antonio Langham playing corner.
BB will pay top dollar for top players at key positions.
BBs opinion of Samuel is absolutley evident from his willingness to pay him 8million for 1 year.
Comparing Asante to Dre Bly is ludicrous. Dre Bly is a thoroughly average corner who will never be better than he is today, and Asante is much better, and can still improve.
NFL players care about their contracts. NFL players do not think just because they can earn 8mill they shouldn't earn 9mill if they can. Human beings feel the same way. An NFL player who doesn't like a contract offer that is less than what other teams would pay him is not a scumbag, but is a normal human being.
THINGS I DO NOT BELIEVE
Something drastic has happened this week.
Any corner on our roster is close to as good as Asante.
Any draft pick we could get in a trade has as much value to us in the next 3 years as Asante Samuel.
Asante will hold out. There is 8mill on the table. Deion Branch risked a few hundred thousand by holding out, not 8 mill.
Asante is overrated.
His Ints were lucky (or any luckier than anyone elses)
Asante is a jerk, F him, let him go.
Our chances of winning SB XLII don't go down drastically if we lose Asante.

I recognize that BB will do what is best for the football team. If the SHORT AND long term success of the franchise is endangered by paying what it takes to keep him, we will not. That said, it is CRAZY to think that we get equal value from a draft choice, regardless what that draft choice is. We are built to win both now and long term. We will not be as able to win now with a rookie in Asante samuel's roster spot.

I have long disagreed with the thinking that we will not pay top dollar for good players under BB. Quite frankly, we always have. The idea that we want a middle class football team is ludicrous. There is absolutely no doubt that BB seeks and does a great job finding bargains. Ask yourself this, however. WHY????? Why does finding bargains make a football team better in a salary cap era? You have a fixed amount of dollars for a fixed amount of players. What do you do with the money you save on the 'bargain'? You can't use it to find more bargains, because you would never spend to the cap.
THE POINT OF FINDING BARGAIN PLAYERS IS TO HAVE MORE TO SPEND ON TOP PLAYERS. To say don't spend heavy on good players so you can afford more bargain guys is backward thinking. The reality is you find bargain guys so you can better afford top guys.

There is no point in overreacting right now.
BB has 2 basic options:
1) Pay Asante what it takes. This decision is not about some moral high ground. Its not about some dream structure that says personell decisions are made by math problems that say what you spend for a postion. This decision is based on the conclusion that the money spent on asante samuel gives the Patriots a better football team than taking it away from him and spending on the next best option.
2) Do not pay him. This decision again is not based on disgust that he doesn't believe the popular fantasy world opinion that players are supposed to think that they should thank the Patriots for letting them be on the team at whatever price they decide. It is not based on a reaction to the words spoken in the press. It is based on a well reasoned conclusion that the New England Patriots are a better football team by spending that amount of money on someone else other than Asante Samuel.

IMO, considering the overall cap structure of the team, considering the roster, the strengths and weaknesses, the reality of whether the team is good enough to compete for a championship today, and down the road, MY decision would be:
A) Continue to negotiate.
B) Do your job as management and negotiate the smallest deal he will agree to
C) If he will not sign, he plays under the tag, and we start over next year (there is no way he sits home and lets $8,000,000 of paychecks go uncashed)

That is MY decision. I have access to about 1% of the information necessary to make the correct decision that BB does, and have about 1% of the knowledge that BB does to make as good a decision if I did have access to as much information. (And by the way, without arrogance, I would say no one on this board has mcuh more than that same 1%).

So BB will make the right decision.

I have no hard feelings toward Asante Samuel for doing what he has every right to do, and quite frankly would be stupid not to do. What that would be asking him to do equates to John Doe sitting in his job, knowing that there are other companies that think he is real good at that job, that would like to hire him, and may give him a large raise, and me telling him he is a bad guy to pursue those opportunities or to tell his current employer that someone else is willing to pay him more to do the same thing and he doesnt like that they wont.
I have no hard feelings toward the Pats for their position either. To do so, would equate to telling Bill Gates that I am more capable of deciding how much money he should pay his top systems designer, and also more capable of deciding how that systems designer is to his company.

Bottom line: Relax. There is no reason to trash or overrate the player to support your opinion on the financial decision. There is no need to villify the player for feeling his paycheck is an important thing, or the franchise for feeling their long term cap structure is an important thing. NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. Let it play out, whatever happens is in the hands of the best front office in sports history. As fans whatever the result, it will end up in OUR best interest, because the decisions are being made by the smartest footbal people that have ever run a franchise.

***danny88*** · 04-06-2007, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

-It never ceases to amaze me how overreactive this board is. I can understand REACTING to rumors and news. Comments such as "wow, if they are far apart this may turn into an issue" or "if this cant get worked out, I want them to (fill in the blank) but lets see what happens" I can understand. The comments that either overrate him or trash his ability, or make judgment that he is scum or the team is cheap, etc, etc based on A REPORT FROM ADAM SCHECTER amaze me. I've never understood why we are so quick to turn a news story about what may be going on behind the scenes into proof that a specific conclusion is guaranetted.
-There seem to be 2 camps:
Camp 1) He isnt that good. This is based on somehow implying that his int #s are a bad thing. Never understood that one. Absolutely Ints are not the sole criteria for a corner, but somehow those knocking him are arguing that it is, and strangely using that to say he isnt that good. Gives me a headache. Additionally, I have heard the 'one good year' comment consisistently. I dont get that one either. I seem to remember we won a SB with Asante playing in place of Ty Law, whom many fans (probably most of the same ones) felt we couldnt win without. I also seem to remember him being far and away the best corner on an AFCE champ that won a playoff game, and played about as well defensively as any team in the NFL in the 2nd half of 2005 when the broken pieces surrounding him got duck taped together.
Camp 2) He is great, pay him. This side also seems to imply the Patriots are being 'cheap' and not treating him well.
-My opinion is:
THINGS I BELIEVE
Asante is a very good corner
If I buy the 'one year' argument, who cares. It was his 4th season, and in his 5th, 6th...... he will be more like what he grew into by year 4 than what he was while growing into it. If you want to argue he stunk in 03-05 (nd you would be wrong) and was excellent in 06, you should argue to keep him because we are keeping him for the player he will be, not what he used to be. (This is also why the Pats do well in FA, they refuse to pay old players for what they were when they were young)
Corners ARE IMPORTANT TO OUR D. Many seem to have forgotten this. Please referesh your memories by looking back at how we played with Duane Starks, Earthwind Moreland, Terrence Shaw, and Antonio Langham playing corner.
BB will pay top dollar for top players at key positions.
BBs opinion of Samuel is absolutley evident from his willingness to pay him 8million for 1 year.
Comparing Asante to Dre Bly is ludicrous. Dre Bly is a thoroughly average corner who will never be better than he is today, and Asante is much better, and can still improve.
NFL players care about their contracts. NFL players do not think just because they can earn 8mill they shouldn't earn 9mill if they can. Human beings feel the same way. An NFL player who doesn't like a contract offer that is less than what other teams would pay him is not a scumbag, but is a normal human being.
THINGS I DO NOT BELIEVE
Something drastic has happened this week.
Any corner on our roster is close to as good as Asante.
Any draft pick we could get in a trade has as much value to us in the next 3 years as Asante Samuel.
Asante will hold out. There is 8mill on the table. Deion Branch risked a few hundred thousand by holding out, not 8 mill.
Asante is overrated.
His Ints were lucky (or any luckier than anyone elses)
Asante is a jerk, F him, let him go.
Our chances of winning SB XLII don't go down drastically if we lose Asante.

I recognize that BB will do what is best for the football team. If the SHORT AND long term success of the franchise is endangered by paying what it takes to keep him, we will not. That said, it is CRAZY to think that we get equal value from a draft choice, regardless what that draft choice is. We are built to win both now and long term. We will not be as able to win now with a rookie in Asante samuel's roster spot.

I have long disagreed with the thinking that we will not pay top dollar for good players under BB. Quite frankly, we always have. The idea that we want a middle class football team is ludicrous. There is absolutely no doubt that BB seeks and does a great job finding bargains. Ask yourself this, however. WHY????? Why does finding bargains make a football team better in a salary cap era? You have a fixed amount of dollars for a fixed amount of players. What do you do with the money you save on the 'bargain'? You can't use it to find more bargains, because you would never spend to the cap.
THE POINT OF FINDING BARGAIN PLAYERS IS TO HAVE MORE TO SPEND ON TOP PLAYERS. To say don't spend heavy on good players so you can afford more bargain guys is backward thinking. The reality is you find bargain guys so you can better afford top guys.

There is no point in overreacting right now.
BB has 2 basic options:
1) Pay Asante what it takes. This decision is not about some moral high ground. Its not about some dream structure that says personell decisions are made by math problems that say what you spend for a postion. This decision is based on the conclusion that the money spent on asante samuel gives the Patriots a better football team than taking it away from him and spending on the next best option.
2) Do not pay him. This decision again is not based on disgust that he doesn't believe the popular fantasy world opinion that players are supposed to think that they should thank the Patriots for letting them be on the team at whatever price they decide. It is not based on a reaction to the words spoken in the press. It is based on a well reasoned conclusion that the New England Patriots are a better football team by spending that amount of money on someone else other than Asante Samuel.

IMO, considering the overall cap structure of the team, considering the roster, the strengths and weaknesses, the reality of whether the team is good enough to compete for a championship today, and down the road, MY decision would be:
A) Continue to negotiate.
B) Do your job as management and negotiate the smallest deal he will agree to
C) If he will not sign, he plays under the tag, and we start over next year (there is no way he sits home and lets $8,000,000 of paychecks go uncashed)

That is MY decision. I have access to about 1% of the information necessary to make the correct decision that BB does, and have about 1% of the knowledge that BB does to make as good a decision if I did have access to as much information. (And by the way, without arrogance, I would say no one on this board has mcuh more than that same 1%).

So BB will make the right decision.

I have no hard feelings toward Asante Samuel for doing what he has every right to do, and quite frankly would be stupid not to do. What that would be asking him to do equates to John Doe sitting in his job, knowing that there are other companies that think he is real good at that job, that would like to hire him, and may give him a large raise, and me telling him he is a bad guy to pursue those opportunities or to tell his current employer that someone else is willing to pay him more to do the same thing and he doesnt like that they wont.
I have no hard feelings toward the Pats for their position either. To do so, would equate to telling Bill Gates that I am more capable of deciding how much money he should pay his top systems designer, and also more capable of deciding how that systems designer is to his company.

Bottom line: Relax. There is no reason to trash or overrate the player to support your opinion on the financial decision. There is no need to villify the player for feeling his paycheck is an important thing, or the franchise for feeling their long term cap structure is an important thing. NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. Let it play out, whatever happens is in the hands of the best front office in sports history. As fans whatever the result, it will end up in OUR best interest, because the decisions are being made by the smartest footbal people that have ever run a franchise.

I read the first 4 pages. Can you summerize the rest?

JackBauer · 04-06-2007, 06:32 PM

Antonio Langham...

<shudder>

***AndyJohnson*** · 04-06-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny88

I read the first 4 pages. Can you summerize the rest?

No one is forcing you to read it.
Excuse me for trying to make a detailed and cogent post instead of typing 94 responses to what someone else thinks.

***PATSNUTme*** · 04-06-2007, 06:45 PM

I can't say that I agree with everything that AJ posted. I can't remember a lot of it.

But, I do agree with enough of it to give it a great big: BINGO!

***pats1*** · 04-06-2007, 06:52 PM

Great post as always, AJ.

***danny88*** · 04-06-2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

No one is forcing you to read it.
Excuse me for trying to make a detailed and cogent post instead of typing 94 responses to what someone else thinks.

Excuse me for making a joke. Most on this site seem to have the sense of humor of a 80 year old nun.

***AndyJohnson*** · 04-06-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danny88

Excuse me for making a joke. Most on this site seem to have the sense of humor of a 80 year old nun.

Perhaps you should identify a criticism as a joke if thats what you mean.

If my response was "I am sorry you aren't literate enough to read my post"
would I be joking or serious?

***Miguel*** · 04-06-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

-I have long disagreed with the thinking that we will not pay top dollar for good players under BB. Quite frankly, we always have. The idea that we want a middle class football team is ludicrous. There is absolutely no doubt that BB seeks and does a great job finding bargains. Ask yourself this, however. WHY????? Why does finding bargains make a football team better in a salary cap era? You have a fixed amount of dollars for a fixed amount of players. What do you do with the money you save on the 'bargain'? You can't use it to find more bargains, because you would never spend to the cap.
THE POINT OF FINDING BARGAIN PLAYERS IS TO HAVE MORE TO SPEND ON TOP PLAYERS. To say don't spend heavy on good players so you can afford more bargain guys is backward thinking. The reality is you find bargain guys so you can better afford top guys.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

According to my numbers, Brady, Seymour, and Colvin took up 28.4% of the Patriots' 2006 adjusted cap number. I do not recall one post criticizing the Patriots last year for having devoted 28% of the cap to 3 players. I'm pretty sure that no team in the NFL last year devoted a higher percentage of cap space to 3 players.

According to my numbers Brady, Samuel, and Seymour take up 22.92% of the Patriots' 2007 adjusted cap.

RIPatFan · 04-06-2007, 07:02 PM

AJ, I've long admired, enjoyed and missed your thourough posts and occasionally gotten ticked off at you for attacking and chasing off more timid posters you disagree with. I think this is certainly one of your best posts. Good job!