Bigger DB's? - Page 5 - New England Patriots Forums

ATippett56 · 01-28-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonerPatriot

Or is it McDaniels...or is it BB...or is it...Hobbs. I can't keep track of who NEM is blaming this week.

Incidentally, NEM basically used about 7,000 posts (at least) to rip Charlie Weis for 3 or 4 years.

Weis, the guy who designed and executed offensive game plans for 3 SB winning teams.

Weis, the guy Brady himself credits for his development.

NEM may have some valid points about McDaniels but he way off base concerning his evaluation of Ellis Hobbs. Is Hobbs a number one cornerback? No, not when compared to Asante Samuel this past season. Do the Patriots need another young cornerback on the roster via the draft? Yes only because Chad Scott and Ray Mickens are in the twilight of their careers.

stinkypete · 01-28-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATippett56

Bigger and taller cornerbacks do not necessarily generate better defensive players. Besides, a shorter cornerback with a greater vertical leap ability negates a taller cornerback with a lesser vertical leap ability. Posted below are the combine results of the Patriots first string cornerbacks:

Name: Ellis Hobbs
College: Iowa State Number: 11
Height: 5'-9" Weight: 186
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2005
40 Time: 4.45
Projected Round: 3
Rated number 16 out of 133 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-9"
Weight: 186
40 Yrd Dash: 4.45
20 Yrd Dash: 2.60
10 Yrd Dash: 1.57
Wonderlic: 15
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 12
Vertical Jump: 42"
Broad Jump: 10'-4"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.08
3-Cone Drill: 6.80

Name: Asante Samuel
College: Central Florida Number: 28
Height: 5'-11" Weight: 185
Position: CB Pos2:
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2003
40 Time: 4.49
Projected Round: 3-4
Rated number 12 out of 57 CB's

Combine Results
Combine Invite: yes
Height: 5'-11"
Weight: 185
40 Yrd Dash: 4.49
20 Yrd Dash: 2.66
10 Yrd Dash: 1.59
Wonderlic: 10
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 9
Vertical Jump: 35-1/2"
Broad Jump: 10'-0"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.14
3-Cone Drill: 6.95

Thank you for the numbers, they help to display the glaring weakness that exists in our secondary. Both Samuel and Hobbs ran a solid 40 yard dash, but look at their 10 yard numbers. Hobbs ran a 1.57, Samuel ran a 1.59. These times are slower than the elite CBs in this league. What it all basically means is that Hobbs and Samuel can keep up with the best on deep routes, but will get beat in the short to intermediate passing game.

Now watch all three playoff games and tell me what part of the field our pass defense is weakest. It is clearly weakest on the 5-15 yard pass attempts. This happens because our defensive backs don't have the quickness to match up with the WRs whose srengths are agility and acceleration.

Just as we lack a WR who can beat the coverage on those short routes (like Deion could) we lack the CBs who can match up with a quick, shifty WR.

unoriginal · 01-28-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

I noticed that you CONVENIENTLY doctore your post and left off the plays that show HOBBs, (In parenthesis as the cover man and the one making the tackle AFTER THE FIRST DOWN GAINS. If anyone doctored it, it was you. I cpied and [pasted EXACTLY from the NFL Game BOOk, and then addm y own comments in bold type) You conveniently left off the fact that on the final derive, Manning picked on the Pats right corner, HOBBS, which was to the left for Manning..and it clearly shows that Hobbs made the tackles AFTER the first downs were made.

If you prefer to discount factual evidence from the NFL game book, then thats your problem, not mine.

Fact is, for the majority of the game, Manning exploited Hobbs, while doing hbis best to stay away from Samuel's man, Harrison.

And, now I am finished with this., Yo0u can attack me on a personal basis all you want..I really dont give a rats patootie, the facts speak for themselves, and it shows how YOU conven iently left off the Pats name that shows in parenthesis as to who was the cover guy, and who made the tackle. Bye. And dont waste the time of all the good posters in this forum with your personal attacks. Take it over to your new home where they condone filth and garbage.

God damnit man, Harrison had 4 catches on the day, Wayne had 5 and Moorehead 3. Some of Wayne's catches came from out of the slot against Hawkins and/or Mickens, and one of Moorehead's came against Alexander. That's Hobbs being picked on to you?

Most of the time they threw at Hobbs, the passes were incomplete. He gave up approximately 80 yards on the day, which is pretty damn good considering he had Rashad Baker playing over top for a full half, and Manning threw for 270 yards elsewhere.

How you look at the game log and the recap and determine that Mannning "exploited" Hobbs is beyond me. All the yardage came over the middle of the field. Hell, ALL the yardage was in the middle of the field, running and passing. Hobbs had nothing to do with the defensive collapse.

He had THREE tackles on the day. ONE of those tackles was on Addai early. If Hobbs was getting gone after, WHERE are all the tackles? WHERE are all the catches? I took notes on the game and I've got a sheet that says Hobbs positively influenced six incomplete passing plays with his coverage. Two of the catches on Hobbs were comebacks on 1st and 2nd down; those are unstoppable against man coverage if the offensive line holds their blocks and the corner doesn't make an unreasonable gamble.

Moreover, Wayne has a history of outperforming Harrison in big games. He gets one more catch than Harrison, and you say Hobbs is toast and Samuel is solid. That's crazy. Your whole perspective on defensive back play is crazy.

unoriginal · 01-28-2007, 02:07 PM

What the hell are you talking about? Fletcher was Alexander's responsibility, and I don't fault Alexander because he was basically left out there to die from exhaustion.

unoriginal · 01-28-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

Hobbs was the cover guy on the first, first down to Wayne on a short right to the Indy 31.

Yes, it was a well executed out route with Hobbs playing over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

Alexander was the cover on the incomplete pass over the middle.

He made a great coverage play stepping up on a short route. He was very good most of the day covering tight ends on options and crosses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

Hobbs was the cover on the one in which Fletcher was put out of bounds at the Pats 37. Hobbs had the outside guy, which was Fletcher, and it shows he was run out of bounds AFTER the catch, while Alexander had Wayne, on that play, which was the inside guy.

He was NOT. That was Alexander's man again, and Alexander was the only guy around. Alexander guessed (hoped?) it would be a short pass, and Fletcher beat him long, catching the pass while going out of bounds while Alexander huffed and puffed behind him.

Here's what I wrote:
"1 + 10: Alex PD 81 mid shrt.
2 + 10: Fletcher beat Alex cornr lng."

But don't take my word for it, I certainly didn't. Here's some stuff I looked up:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070122/...im_litke012107

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Litke, AP Sports Writer

His first throw was a quick out to Reggie Wayne for 11 and a first down, but the next one, a short toss over the middle, left Bryan Fletcher wrestling with New England linebacker Eric Alexander for a pass he couldn't hold onto.It was a prelude to maybe the best throw — and if not, maybe the most important — of Manning's career.

"This is scary to say this publicly, because who knows where his ego will go from here," Manning said about Fletcher, "but that was his call."
Fletcher noticed Alexander gambling in coverage against him and told Manning, "Give me a corner route on that guy."

And so, on second-and-10, with Belichick calling blitzes on nearly every play, Manning called the corner route and stepped up to avoid the rush and buy Fletcher enough time to get there. As the tight end reached the left sideline at the Patriots' 37, Manning's throw arched, letter perfect, just beyond Alexander's fingertips and into the hands of Fletcher with just enough room to get both feet in-bounds.

And, shame on us both, we haven't quoted Box and pats1 yet: Indianapolis Breakdown (AFC Championship)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pats1

Hobbs stuck with Wayne on a short crossing pattern. This left Alexander chasing Fletcher deep downfield.

You are wrong about a point you've spent the last 10 posts hammering on and hammering on. There is not another source in the world that agrees with you, and you've been told so, but I can't imagine you actually did any research on it, so now you've had to be shown so. What is with that? I make posts that take half an hour to type, and five minutes later you've comeback with the same **** as before. Your "opinion" on Fletcher's catch, just like your opinion on Hobbs' ability and height, is not made true just because you say so, ad nauseum.

If you can't get key plays like this right - and this was just about the biggest offensive play of the game for the Colts, certainly the one that made me feel like I'd been doused in ice water when I saw it - how is anyone on this board supposed to trust your subjective viewpoint on general things like a corner's overall performance?

unoriginal · 01-28-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

Yeah, he was out there and suffering from exhaustion because Josh McDaniels couldnt do his part of the deal and sustain any time of posession for the offense to give the defense a rest. Thank for pointing that out.

McDaniels now? You need to zip it for a while.

***BelichickFan*** · 01-28-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

in September we will see if Hobbs starts on the corner. I say NO.

I will be STUNNED if he doesn't. Especially as I expect Samuel to be Franchised and traded but even if Samuel is back, Hobbs, IMO, is very likely to be across the field from him.

***Box_O_Rocks*** · 01-28-2007, 07:10 PM

Hello NEM the LIAR:

You see, there's a difference between my post and yours, I posted a link to the source. You inserted your own commentary to make it match your vision and made sure not to link to your source since people would be able to see that you doctored your post to make it say what you wanted it to say.

So NEM, I will call you a name, an accurate one, since you lied. Now, have you got the guts to correct the record? Are you going to tell us what basis for Hobbs not starting you choose to use in the bet you've offered? You ignored my question in the blocking scheme thread, please, tell us why Hobbs won't start next season so we can know what ground rules affect your bet - not that you will braggart - you haven't got the guts to go through with that bet and will undoubtedly renege on it when you lose.

So I close with this, NEM is a Liar, a gutless one. You'd better (Please be quiet - edited) while you're behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEM

I noticed that you CONVENIENTLY doctore your post and left off the plays that show HOBBs, (In parenthesis as the cover man and the one making the tackle AFTER THE FIRST DOWN GAINS. If anyone doctored it, it was you. I cpied and [pasted EXACTLY from the NFL Game BOOk, and then addm y own comments in bold type) You conveniently left off the fact that on the final derive, Manning picked on the Pats right corner, HOBBS, which was to the left for Manning..and it clearly shows that Hobbs made the tackles AFTER the first downs were made.

If you prefer to discount factual evidence from the NFL game book, then thats your problem, not mine.

Fact is, for the majority of the game, Manning exploited Hobbs, while doing hbis best to stay away from Samuel's man, Harrison.

And, now I am finished with this., Yo0u can attack me on a personal basis all you want..I really dont give a rats patootie, the facts speak for themselves, and it shows how YOU conven iently left off the Pats name that shows in parenthesis as to who was the cover guy, and who made the tackle. Bye. And dont waste the time of all the good posters in this forum with your personal attacks. Take it over to your new home where they condone filth and garbage.

everlong · 01-28-2007, 07:34 PM

The only way Hobbs doesn't start at corner is if Samuel is back and we draft a corner at #24 and he comes in playing lights out. If he gets off to a slow start all bets are off however. That said Samuel didn't really start to get it until the second half of his third year. Hobbs played well in all the playoff games so I think he's progressing. If they did draft a corner I still would mind hobbs being lined up on the slot receiver or a smaller TE like Clark in nickle and dime packages. He's a good combo of power and speed to jam on the line and then cover down the field.

I would also like him to become more field aware. The play against the Colts where they made the bad pass int. call Wayne was just about out of the end zone. He should have turned at that point and the bad call never would have happened.