JSn

OK, I'm not here to play expert, because I'm still learning. But I DO hope this thread will draw some of our X&O guys in.

There's a mound of argument between 4-3 and 3-4. Probably until the Seymour trade, it seemed like 4-3 was destiny.

What I want to know is what line-up's make a solid 4-3, which make a solid 3-4 and which grouping can best morph when facing a hurry up offense.

BTW, I'm looking for thoughtful conversation, not a bar-brawl.

DL - Brace, Wright, Pryor, Green, Warren, Wilfork (these guys are DL in either formation, correct?)

DE/LB - Burgess, Banta-Cain, AD (the last being spec, but he could drop to end in a 4-3, I think)

LB - Guyton, Mayo, Ninkovich, Thomas, Woods, Alexander


I think my questions are:

1) Can TBC or Burgess play OLB in a 3-4 since that won't hide anything from the offense?

2) Have my eyes and ear deceived me, or is Alexander actually a serviceable LB, unlike former LB/ST ace Izzo?

3) How do you assign the DL group? Older projections had Wright as a backup NT and Brace coming in to Back up NT. Obviously those guys can move around - where to?

4) Is the 1-2 down 3-4 now a line of Brace/Wilfork/Warren?

5) In the 4-3, are we less likely to have 2-down players or is that unchanged by the formation?

I feel like the 4-3 is risky, improved DB's or not. With so many teams switching to 3-4, is there a reason we are showing a lot of 4-3 beyond personnel? After all, it's not like BB and co. don't choose the team they field.

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patsfan13

The base d on 1st down will still be a 3-4 to stop the run. The starters

Warren Wilfolk Brace, Pryor to rotate at NT, Green, Wright To rotate at DE

AD MAyo Guyton Woods.




However with the # of pts the O will score we will spend > 50% of our time in a nickle or dime package. In the nickle we will play 4-2-5, AD & Mayo will be the LB's. Take your pick on the DL lots of rotation to keep the big guys fresh.


DT rotation: Wilfolk, Pryor, Brace, Wright take 2
DE rotation: Burgess, BantaCain Take 1
DE Green Wright Take 1


The depth on the DL (especially the surprise emergence of Pryor), allow the trading of Seymour without (Hopefilly IMO) too much damage to the D overall.

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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."

Shockt327

^^^

The Jumbo set will not be used on 1st down. In today's NFL, 1st down is not a running down anymore. The jumbo will be used in 3rd/4th and short situations.

satz

We do not have a 290 LB speed edge rusher like pepper,freeney ,will smith ,mario william , Dumerville etc etc ...


Burgess is 260 and so in banta .In oakland burgess regressed as at 260 he got hammerred in the NFL. He could not stay healthy.

We can play out 300 LB DT at END but then forget about Rush as our Speed guys from the edge are slow DT.

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Fencer

Seymour, Warren, and Green all started at NT but transitioned more to DE fairly soon. I believe the same has happened w/ Wright.

I think any of Green, Wright, or Brace could wind up as the RDE starter.

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flasox27

Just check the weights on the people you cited. Aside from Peppers and Williams, the other rushers are within 5 pounds of Burgess's weight.

Trocadile

The 4-3 that BB used in the preseason and practices, which some have called a jumbo 4-3, was basically his 3-4 with one of the ILB replaced by a DT. So, Warren-Wilfork-Seymour were still on the field with one of Brace, Pryor or Wright playing next to Wilfork. I think he was either toying with this or committing to it because he doesn't feel he has an ILB to play next to Mayo who can reliably take on a guard. This is basically the same reason he switched to it in 2001 - Cox and Johnson got injured, leaving him short of ILB, so he moved Bruschi to MLB and went to a four man line. But the line remained basically the same, except for the added DT, i.e., he had Hamilton and Pleasant at end, even though they were really 3-4 ends. The 4-3 also made sense that year because he had no true nose tackle (although Seymour did well playing there).

Whether he goes 3-4 or 4-3 this year (and, as in 2001, he'll stick with whatever works) I think you'll still see Warren and Wilfork at their usual positions along with whoever replaces Seymour (Green, Wright and Brace all being options). He'll then either insert a tackle or play Guyton inside rather than outside and add Woods.

Burress and TBC I don't see playing in the base defense much. They seem destined for sub packages (4-2-5, etc.) for now.

Along with the weakness at ILB, I think he's intrigued by the 4-3 because of the games he can play with his DTs. Wilfork, Brace and Pryor all have unusual size/athleticism and BB had them playing different techniques on different snaps, i.e., he would switch who was over center (if anyone) and who was 2-gapping versus 1-gapping. Wright while not as big, can also be part of this.

All this could change if he acquires or converts (Ninkovich?) someone to be an ILB who can take on a guard head-up or if Guyton proves more capable of it than I think he will.

satz

exactly, freeney took 2 yrs to recover from him foot injury ,dumerville has missed a bunch of games and so had smith who has slowed down.
people do not hold up there. Take burgess he was in probowl and after 2-3 yrs could not stay on the field . Its the pounding these guys take.
I have idea how suddenly burgess is going to morph into a healthy 4-3 end .

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patsfan13

TBC and Burgess will be playing ~ 30 snaps per game, If they were trying to play 65 snaps durability would be an issue, we're not going to ask them to do that. Also they won't be on the field for plays that are more likely to be running plays.

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"Some guys play in all-star games, some guys don't. I don't know who picks all those all-star teams. In all honesty, I don't know who picks the combine, for that matter," Belichick said. "How does (Miami-Ohio offensive lineman Brandon) Brooks not get invited to the combine? How did Vollmer not get invited to the combine? I don't know. We can't really worry about that. We just have to try to evaluate them the best we can."

satz

But on off tackle runs you are asking them to block a 300 LB tackle and then not get push around. I can see them effective in passing down but in base packaged where a team pulls a gaurd you are asking them and a LB at 240 lb to block 2 300 lb guys running at them and then get to the 220LB rb behind them.Just ask the colts why their Run defence is so bad. they have too many lighter people and big team will push them around.

Team might just pull their atheletic tackles for a big bruser and run behind a FB knowing they have a good chance to get to the secondary on tackle runs.

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