Originally Posted by MoLewisrocks

Yup, and unless he signs a long term contract with the Panthers that contains no signing bonus, which he won't do because he isn't stupid, they probably aren't going to trade him in the last capped season where bonus accelerates...and because even beyond cap consequences it would be the equivalent of paying him to play for someone else...

I have never seen a season where fans were so confused about the tag or the cap.

If he signs the tag Carolina can put him on the trading block. They would still need to find a team willing to either absorb his tag or sign him to a pre negotiated long term deal on the day he's traded and compensate Carolina sufficiently with draft picks to allow them to walk away from the cornerstone of their defense.

Originally Posted by eom

can't new england kick in cash on the deal?
let's say carolina pays him a 5m signing bonus --- new england sends 5m their way to cover that and they're just on the hook for 5m in dead money instead of 17m in peppers comp.
maybe new england even kicks in green on the deal, and they've got an end for 2m, or whatever his salary is.
meanwhile, new england guarantees pep a completion bonus in 2010.


what you don't seem to get about 'getting compensation for pep' is that a thing is only worth what you get paid for it.
every year in fantasy football I've got some guy *****ing me because he thinks I owe him x value on whatver player he wants to unload.
NOBODY is giving you a ton of pick value to get peppers at 17m for one year.
there're supposedly only a handful of teams he'll sign a deal with, and I've heard a couple are division rivals, making this a strong buyer's market.
go ahead and stay at the cap, holding out for 2 firsts, or whatever, and see what you get.

look at how the pats handled cassel --- that's success.

Originally Posted by MoLewisrocks

Yup, and unless he signs a long term contract with the Panthers that contains no signing bonus, which he won't do because he isn't stupid, they probably aren't going to trade him in the last capped season where bonus accelerates...and because even beyond cap consequences it would be the equivalent of paying him to play for someone else...

I have never seen a season where fans were so confused about the tag or the cap.

If he signs the tag Carolina can put him on the trading block. They would still need to find a team willing to either absorb his tag or sign him to a pre negotiated long term deal on the day he's traded and compensate Carolina sufficiently with draft picks to allow them to walk away from the cornerstone of their defense.

If he doesn't sign the tag he and his agent can continue to talk to as many teams as they want but no deal gets done unless they find one for Carolina and Carolina agrees to listen and negotiate with that team. Then if they can all agree to terms he signs the tag on that day, is traded on that day, and likely signed to a new long term extension by his new team on that day. That's the way it most often works in tag and trade.

When NY traded Abraham to Atlanta he had not signed his tag. In fact he had made it clear he was not going to play for the JETS ever again. Atlanta wanted him and he wanted them but they were not willing to trade 2 firsts for him. So he asked NY (who always intended to trade him) to work something out with Atlanta AFTER he and his agent had agreed to contract parameters. NY asked for Schaub and a 2nd rounder. Atlanta said no, we'll give you a second, period. Then NY said well Seattle caught wind of this and is interested and they'd give us a first. Only Atlanta's first was a lot higher and Abraham refused to negotiate with Seattle on a contract. But rather than eventually lose him if Seattle offered substantially more to him in contract or he just had to do a deal to get out of NY, Atlanta went to Denver and did a picks trade that gave them a late 1st they were willing to part with for Abraham. He then signed his tag and was traded and extended by Atlanta the same day...but the whole process took a couple of weeks from start (agent locates Atlanta and agrees to parameters of a deal for his client) to finish (Atlanta and NY agree on compensation).

That whole part in the middle is what BB wants no part of...

Originally Posted by eom

can't new england kick in cash on the deal?
let's say carolina pays him a 5m signing bonus --- new england sends 5m their way to cover that and they're just on the hook for 5m in dead money instead of 17m in peppers comp.

Originally Posted by eom

yeah, absolutely --- IF they could trade him to a team that could swallow the whole 17m, getting them off the hook, who would shower them w/all these picks, or whatever, that would be best.

I don't know where dallas is at on their cap...let me go check...(thx, adam)...10-11m ---- let's say dallas finds a way to clear another 6, and wants to trade away next year's picks, or something like that.
didn't they already ship away this year's for roy williams?

the point being that carolina has very limited options right now --- they can just pay the guy 17m for one year, and then what happens next year?
do they even get anything for him, or do they pay him another 20m?

nobody will trade for pep if they can't sign him longer term, and he apparently has some short list that includes a couple division rivals, which carolina probably wouldn't be crazy about.

as far as the real money of a 5m signing bonus goes, I thought the pats could cover that in the deal, but mo corrected me on that one.
as far as the cap space ---- yeah, carolina would be on the hook for 5m, but they'd also be offloading 17m, so which situation looks better?
they'd have 17m clear, w/5m in dead money, which would most likely be irrelevant, as I don't see them spending the 17+m.

Originally Posted by patfanken

.... God this off season just gets better and better.

2. I don't see any scenerio where the Pats keep more than 5 rookies on the final 53 man roster, so it will be very interesting to see how Bill uses those 12 picks to get those 5 players. One of the interesting things he said in his interview was the the difference between picking at 23 over 34 is NOT that you will get a better athlete, but that you have more OPTIONS on who that athlete IS. A nice subtle BB observation. Personally I'd LOVE to see him use those bottom 6 picks to move up in the draft to insure they not only get 5-6 great athletes, but they get the guys they want the most.

Originally Posted by patfanken

5. Could someone put a list of all the best Safety prospects for me. I think I read about a 6'4" 200+ CB who might make an awesome S.

Originally Posted by patfanken

6. The more I think on it, the more I think the Pats might use one of their first 4 picks on a WR - a big one (Harbin, from MD comes to mind)

Originally Posted by patfanken

7. I heard that the NFL was looking into changing the draft order, so that teams that made the playoffs wouldn't be drafting before teams that didn't. If it comes to pass I think it would mean the Pats would draft at #20 instead of 23. What are the chances of that happening for this draft.

Originally Posted by DaBruinz

Ken - How do you figure that only 5 or 6 picks will make the team ? The Pats currently have 65 players under contract.

Players who are all but guaranteed spots:
Offense: (17)
Brady, O'Connell, Maroney, Faulk, Morris, Taylor, Moss, Welker, Galloway, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Baker, Watson, LaVoir

Defense (18):

Wilfork, Warren, Seymour, Mayo, Thomas, Woods, Bruschi, Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite, Springs, Bodden, Sanders, Meriweather, Green, Smith, Guyton, Wright

Special Teams: (2)
Gostkowski, Hanson


People on the bubble are: (IMHO) (28)
David Thomas, Billy Yates, Russ Hochstein, Tully Banta-Cain, Angelo Craig, Ryan O'Callaghan, Wesley Britt, Dan Connolly, Antwan Spann, Ryan Wendell, Matt Gutierrez, Ray Ventrone, Nathan Hodel, BJGE, Mike Richardson, Tyson DeVree, Vince Redd, Bo Ruud, Brad Listori, Tom Malone, Al Johnson, Tank Williams, Sam Aiken, Greg Lewis, Matt Slater, Titus Adams, Shawn Crable, Eric Alexander.

With only 37 spots all but certain, that leaves 14 roster sports needing to be filled.

Originally Posted by spacecrime

Assume 6 rookies make the team. That will be all our picks in rounds 1-3. Probably rounds 1-4 if BB packages picks to move up.

But to be conservative, figure he doesn't trade up. The first six picks are used to cut the weaker of the players on your list.

So what do you have left? 8 more spots to fill from your list?

Late round picks trying to beat out Shawn Crable? AIn't gonna happen. He was a third round pick who played well before going on IR. 7 left
Hochstein? No, a rookie is not going to take his job. You only have us with 6 vet linemen. Need eight. Room for one rookie (which will be one other 1st or second round picks), but Chchsteinand one of Britt/O'Callaghan stay. 5 spots left. Greg Lewis? If a rookie beats out a guy BB already tradd a fifth round pick for, it will be one of the six early pick rookies to make team. 4 spots left.

Dave Thomas. Are you kidding? He hasn't been used but has ben vey good when used. All his signing bonus is paid and he is earning rookie minimum. Not going to be replaced by a late round rookie who could make the practice squad. Ditto Tank Williams. The guy was going to be a centerpiece before he got hurt on the opening kickoff of the first preseason game. No rookie for him, either. 3 spots left.

The special teams is not going to be totally replaced by rookies. The six rookies who do make the team will be all the new blood a ST unit can handle. THree of Spann, Ventront, Richardson, Alexander, BJGE make the team.

No spots left.

But wait, and UDFA QB who is signed to toss balls in camp and save Brady's arm beats out Gutierez.

I'll give you seven rookies.

You make disagree with this but if you start eliminating players you will see that by the time you eliminate the weakest of the bubble players with the first six picks in the draft, you will see that the next few drafted players are going to be facing very good veteran players to unseat. If they come close, they will be on the practice squad.